Difference between revisions of "GranulePosAndSeeking"

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Folks have noticed that the documentation is semi-silent about how to
+
Folks have noticed that the documentation is semi-silent about how to properly encode the granule position and interleave synchronization of keyframe-based video. The primary reasons for this:
properly encode the granule position and interleave synchronization of
 
keyframe-based video. The primary reasons for this:
 
  
 
a) we at Xiph hadn't had to do it yet
 
a) we at Xiph hadn't had to do it yet
b) there are several easy possibilities, and the longer we had to
 
  think about it before mandating One True Spec, the better that spec
 
  would likely be.
 
  
The lack of a painfully explicit spec has led to the theory that it's
+
b) there are several easy possibilities, and the longer we had to think about it before mandating One True Spec, the better that spec would likely be.
not possible; that's not true, there are a few ways to do it. Several
 
require no extension to Ogg stream v 0. A last way requires an extra
 
field (a point against it), but does not actually break any stream
 
that currently exists.
 
  
The time has come to lay down the spec as we're currently building the
+
The lack of a painfully explicit spec has led to the theory that it's not possible; that's not true, there are a few ways to do it. Several require no extension to Ogg stream v 0. A last way requires an extra field (a point against it), but does not actually break any stream that currently exists.
real abstraction layers in a concrete Ogg framework now where the Ogg
+
 
engine, the codecs, and the overarching Ogg control layers are neatly
+
The time has come to lay down the spec as we're currently building the real abstraction layers in a concrete Ogg framework now where the Ogg engine, the codecs, and the overarching Ogg control layers are neatly put into boxes connected in formalized ways. Below I go into detail about each scheme in a 'thinking aloud' sort of way. This is not because I haven't already given the matter sufficient thought, it is because I wish to give the reader sufficient background information to understand why one way is better than the others. This is not a call for input so much as an educational effort (and a public sanity check of my thinking; please do pipe up if it appears I missed a salient point).
put into boxes connected in formalized ways. Below I go into detail
 
about each scheme in a 'thinking aloud' sort of way. This is not
 
because I haven't already given the matter sufficient thought, it is
 
because I wish to give the reader sufficient background information to
 
understand why one way is better than the others. This is not a call
 
for input so much as an educational effort (and a public sanity check
 
of my thinking; please do pipe up if it appears I missed a salient
 
point).
 
  
 
Starting Assumptions:
 
Starting Assumptions:
  
1) Ogg is not a non-linear format. It is not a replacement for the
+
1) Ogg is not a non-linear format. It is not a replacement for the scripting system of a DVD player. It is a media transport format
scripting system of a DVD player. It is a media transport format
+
designed to do nothing more than deliver content, in a stream, and have all the pieces arrive on time and in sync. It is not designed to *prevent* more complex use of content, it merely does not implement anything beyond a linear representation of the data contained within. If you want to build a real non-linear format, build it *from* Ogg, not *into* Ogg. This has been the intent from day 1.
designed to do nothing more than deliver content, in a stream, and
 
have all the pieces arrive on time and in sync. It is not designed to
 
*prevent* more complex use of content, it merely does not implement
 
anything beyond a linear representation of the data contained within.
 
If you want to build a real non-linear format, build it *from* Ogg,
 
not *into* Ogg. This has been the intent from day 1.
 
  
2) The Ogg layer does not know specifics of the codec data it's
+
2) The Ogg layer does not know specifics of the codec data it's multiplexing into a stream. It knows nothing beyond 'Oooo, packets!', that the packets belong to different buckets, that the packets go in order, and that packets have position markers. Ogg does not even have a concept of 'time'; it only knows about the sequentially increasing, unitless position markers. It is up to higher layers which have access to the codec APIs to assign and convert units of framing or time.
multiplexing into a stream. It knows nothing beyond 'Oooo, packets!',
 
that the packets belong to different buckets, that the packets go in
 
order, and that packets have position markers. Ogg does not even have
 
a concept of 'time'; it only knows about the sequentially increasing,
 
unitless position markers. It is up to higher layers which have
 
access to the codec APIs to assign and convert units of framing or
 
time.
 
  
3) Given pre-cached decode headers, a player may seek into a stream at
+
3) Given pre-cached decode headers, a player may seek into a stream at any point and begin decode. It may be the case that audio may start after video by a fraction of a second, or video might be blank until the stream hits the next keyframe, but this simplest case must just work, and there will be sufficient information to maintain perfect cross-media sync.
any point and begin decode. It may be the case that audio may start
 
after video by a fraction of a second, or video might be blank until
 
the stream hits the next keyframe, but this simplest case must just
 
work, and there will be sufficient information to maintain perfect
 
cross-media sync.
 
  
4) (This departs from current reality, but it will be the reality very
+
4) (This departs from current reality, but it will be the reality very soon; vorbisfile currently blurs the careful abstraction I'm about to describe) Seeking at an arbitrary level of precision is a distributed abstraction in the larger Ogg picture. At the lowest-level Ogg stream abstraction, seeking is one operation: "find me the page from logical stream 'n' with granule position 'x'". All more complex seeking operations are a function of a higher-level layer (with knowledge of the media types and codec in use) making intelligent use of this lowest Ogg abstraction. The Ogg stream abstraction need deal with nothing more complex than 'find this page'.
soon; vorbisfile currently blurs the careful abstraction I'm about to
 
describe) Seeking at an arbitrary level of precision is a distributed
 
abstraction in the larger Ogg picture. At the lowest-level Ogg stream
 
abstraction, seeking is one operation: "find me the page from logical
 
stream 'n' with granule position 'x'". All more complex seeking
 
operations are a function of a higher-level layer (with knowledge of
 
the media types and codec in use) making intelligent use of this
 
lowest Ogg abstraction. The Ogg stream abstraction need deal with
 
nothing more complex than 'find this page'.
 
  
 
The various granulepos strategies for keyframes concern this last point.
 
The various granulepos strategies for keyframes concern this last point.
  
The basic issue with video from which complexity arises is that frames
+
The basic issue with video from which complexity arises is that frames often depend on previous and possibly future frames. This happens in a larger, general category of codecs whose streams may not begin decode from just any packet as well as packets that may not represent an entire frame, or even a fixed-time sampling algorithm. It is a mistake to design a seeking system tied to an exact set of very specific cases. While one could implement an explicit keyframe mechanism at the Ogg level, this mechanism would not cover any of the other interesting seeking cases while, as I'll show below, the mechanism would not actually be necessary.
often depend on previous and possibly future frames. This happens in
 
a larger, general category of codecs whose streams may not begin
 
decode from just any packet as well as packets that may not represent
 
an entire frame, or even a fixed-time sampling algorithm. It is a
 
mistake to design a seeking system tied to an exact set of very
 
specific cases. While one could implement an explicit keyframe
 
mechanism at the Ogg level, this mechanism would not cover any of the
 
other interesting seeking cases while, as I'll show below, the
 
mechanism would not actually be necessary.
 
  
There will be a few complaints that Ogg is being unnecessarily subtle
+
There will be a few complaints that Ogg is being unnecessarily subtle and shifts a great deal of complexity into software which a few extra page header fields could eliminate. Consider the following:
and shifts a great deal of complexity into software which a few extra
 
page header fields could eliminate. Consider the following:
 
  
1) Ogg was designed to impose a roughly .5-1% over the raw packet data
+
1) Ogg was designed to impose a roughly .5-1% over the raw packet data over a wide range of packet usage patterns. 'A few extra fields' begins inflating that figure for specific special cases that only apply to a few stream types. Right now there is no header field that is not general to every stream. There is no fat in the page headers.
over a wide range of packet usage patterns. 'A few extra fields'
 
begins inflating that figure for specific special cases that only
 
apply to a few stream types. Right now there is no header field that
 
is not general to every stream. There is no fat in the page headers.
 
  
2) The Ogg-level seeking algorithm is exceptionally simple and can be
+
2) The Ogg-level seeking algorithm is exceptionally simple and can be described in a single sentence: "Find the earliest page with a granulepos less than but closest to 'x'". This shifts the onus of assembling more complex seeking operation requiring knowledge of a specific media type into a higher layer that has knowledge of that media type. The higher layer becomes responsible for determining for what 'x' Ogg should search. The division of labor is clear and
described in a single sentence: "Find the earliest page with a
 
granulepos less than but closest to 'x'". This shifts the onus of
 
assembling more complex seeking operation requiring knowledge of a
 
specific media type into a higher layer that has knowledge of that
 
media type. The higher layer becomes responsible for determining for
 
what 'x' Ogg should search. The division of labor is clear and
 
 
sensible.
 
sensible.
  
3) Complex, precise seeking operations are still contained entirely
+
3) Complex, precise seeking operations are still contained entirely within the framework, just at a higher layer than Ogg-stream. At no time is an application developer required to deal with seeking mechanisms within an Ogg stream or to manually maintain stream
within the framework, just at a higher layer than Ogg-stream. At no
 
time is an application developer required to deal with seeking
 
mechanisms within an Ogg stream or to manually maintain stream
 
 
synchronization.
 
synchronization.
  
 
High level handwaving- How seeking really works:
 
High level handwaving- How seeking really works:
  
The granulepos is intended to mean, roughly, 'If I stop decode at the
+
The granulepos is intended to mean, roughly, 'If I stop decode at the end of this page, I will get data from my decoder up to position 'granulepos'. The granulepos simultaneously provides seeking information and a 'length-of-stream' indicator. Depending on the codec, it can also usually be used to indicate a timebase, but that isn't our problem right now.
end of this page, I will get data from my decoder up to position
 
'granulepos'. The granulepos simultaneously provides seeking
 
information and a 'length-of-stream' indicator. Depending on the
 
codec, it can also usually be used to indicate a timebase, but that
 
isn't our problem right now.
 
  
By inference, the granulepos is also used to construct a value 'y'
+
By inference, the granulepos is also used to construct a value 'y' such that 'if I begin decode *from* point 'y', I will get data
such that 'if I begin decode *from* point 'y', I will get data
+
beginning at position 'granulepos'. Although in some codecs, y == granulepos, that is not necessarily the case when decode can't begin at any arbitrary packet. The granulepos encoding method candidates I will now describe affect exactly the 'granulepos' to 'y' conversion process. Note also that none of these affect Ogg, only the higher decision-making layers... Different circumstanced necessitated by different codecs can lead to different valid choices, all of which work as far as Ogg is concerned. However, for our I-/P-/B-frame video case, there is a pretty clear winner.
beginning at position 'granulepos'. Although in some codecs, y ==
 
granulepos, that is not necessarily the case when decode can't begin
 
at any arbitrary packet. The granulepos encoding method candidates I
 
will now describe affect exactly the 'granulepos' to 'y' conversion
 
process. Note also that none of these affect Ogg, only the higher
 
decision-making layers... Different circumstanced necessitated by
 
different codecs can lead to different valid choices, all of which
 
work as far as Ogg is concerned. However, for our I-/P-/B-frame video
 
case, there is a pretty clear winner.
 
  
 
Strategy 1: Straight Granulepos, Keyframes Are Not Our Problem.
 
Strategy 1: Straight Granulepos, Keyframes Are Not Our Problem.
 
    
 
    
   In this scheme, the granulepos is a simple frame counter. The
+
   In this scheme, the granulepos is a simple frame counter. The seeking decision-maker in the codec's framework plugin is responsible for determining if a frame is a keyframe or not, and if it can't begin decode from a given frame, it must request another earlier frame until it finds a keyframe. If the codec so desires, it can store 'what is my keyframe?' information in the stream packets.
  seeking decision-maker in the codec's framework plugin is
 
  responsible for determining if a frame is a keyframe or not, and if
 
  it can't begin decode from a given frame, it must request another
 
  earlier frame until it finds a keyframe. If the codec so desires,
 
  it can store 'what is my keyframe?' information in the stream
 
  packets.
 
  
   This case means that each seek to a *specific* frame in a video
+
   This case means that each seek to a *specific* frame in a video stream will generally result in two Ogg seeks; a first seek to the the requested frame, then a second seek backwards to find that frame's keyframe.
  stream will generally result in two Ogg seeks; a first seek to the
 
  the requested frame, then a second seek backwards to find that
 
  frame's keyframe.
 
  
   A larger concern is the semantic accuracy of the granulepos; it's
+
   A larger concern is the semantic accuracy of the granulepos; it's intended to reflect position accurately when decoding forward. In this scheme, it's fine for a P-frame to update the counter (as it can be decoded going strictly forward), but B frames will also advance the counter; they can't be decoded without subsequent P or I frames. Thus, the semantic value of granulepos no longer strictly represents 'we can decode up to 'granulepos' at the end of this frame'.
  intended to reflect position accurately when decoding forward. In
 
  this scheme, it's fine for a P-frame to update the counter (as it
 
  can be decoded going strictly forward), but B frames will also
 
  advance the counter; they can't be decoded without subsequent P or I
 
  frames. Thus, the semantic value of granulepos no longer strictly
 
  represents 'we can decode up to 'granulepos' at the end of this
 
  frame'.
 
  
 
Strategy 2: Granulepos Represents Keyframes Only
 
Strategy 2: Granulepos Represents Keyframes Only
  
   In this scheme, only keyframes update the granulepos (monotonically
+
   In this scheme, only keyframes update the granulepos (monotonically or non-monotonically). It simplifies the seeking process to a
  or non-monotonically). It simplifies the seeking process to a
+
   keyframe as an Ogg-level seek to page 'x' will always yield a page with a keyframe. In addition, granulepos will also always mean 'we can decode up to *at least* this point in the stream. If the stream is truncated at P or B frames past granulepos, the extra frames can be discarded. (A special case would need to be defined to terminate a stream that doesn't end on an I frame).
   keyframe as an Ogg-level seek to page 'x' will always yield a page
 
  with a keyframe. In addition, granulepos will also always mean 'we
 
  can decode up to *at least* this point in the stream. If the stream
 
  is truncated at P or B frames past granulepos, the extra frames can
 
  be discarded. (A special case would need to be defined to terminate
 
  a stream that doesn't end on an I frame).
 
  
   The difficulty with this scheme is that it presents slightly more
+
   The difficulty with this scheme is that it presents slightly more for the software level decoder to track; a proper frame number could not be determined internally without tracking from an I frame. Also, the granulepos an Ogg page would not necessarily map to the last packet on the page, or even any packet on that page; multiple sequential pages could have the same granulepos. It is conceptually slightly messy, although the 'messiness' does not make it at all impractical.
  for the software level decoder to track; a proper frame number could
 
  not be determined internally without tracking from an I frame.
 
  Also, the granulepos an Ogg page would not necessarily map to the
 
  last packet on the page, or even any packet on that page; multiple
 
  sequential pages could have the same granulepos. It is conceptually
 
  slightly messy, although the 'messiness' does not make it at all
 
  impractical.
 
  
 
Strategy 3: Granulepos Encodes Some State
 
Strategy 3: Granulepos Encodes Some State
  
   In some ways, this strategy is the most semantically 'over clever',
+
   In some ways, this strategy is the most semantically 'over clever', but also the easiest to implement and the one that gives the most correct, up to date sync information. Pending comments, it is the I/P/B video strategy I currently favor.
  but also the easiest to implement and the one that gives the most
 
  correct, up to date sync information. Pending comments, it is the
 
  I/P/B video strategy I currently favor.
 
  
   The granulepos is 64 bits, a size that is absolutely necessary if,
+
   The granulepos is 64 bits, a size that is absolutely necessary if, for example, it represents the PCM sample count in an audio codec. When being used to encode video frame number, however, it is comparatively absurdly large*.
  for example, it represents the PCM sample count in an audio codec.
 
  When being used to encode video frame number, however, it is
 
  comparatively absurdly large*.
 
  
   * note that although granulepos is not permitted to wrap around, we
+
   * note that although granulepos is not permitted to wrap around, we can simply begin a new logical stream segment with a new serial number should a 30fps video stream ever hit the ten-billion year mark.
    can simply begin a new logical stream segment with a new serial
 
    number should a 30fps video stream ever hit the ten-billion year
 
    mark.
 
  
   Thus we clearly have room to skim a few bits off the bottom of
+
   Thus we clearly have room to skim a few bits off the bottom of granulepos to represent I, P or B frame. These bits are not used as flags, but rather, frame representation becomes a counting problem; We do this such that the count is still always strictly increasing.
  granulepos to represent I, P or B frame. These bits are not used as
 
  flags, but rather, frame representation becomes a counting problem;
 
  We do this such that the count is still always strictly increasing.
 
  
   For example, we know that I frames will never be more than 256
+
   For example, we know that I frames will never be more than 256 frames apart and P frames no more than 31 B frames apart, the granulepos of an I frame can be defined to always be granulepos | 0xff == 0. If we can have up to seven intervening P frames, they could be numbered in granulepos-of-iframe + 0x20, 0x40, 0x60... 0xe0. B frames between the I and P frames would use the remaining five bits and be numbers as sub-I and sub-P frames 1 through 31. Thus, starting from zero, the frames/packets in the pattern IPBBPBBI would be numbered 0x000, 0x020, 0x021, 0x022, 0x040, 0x041, 0x042, 0x100.
  frames apart and P frames no more than 31 B frames apart, the
 
  granulepos of an I frame can be defined to always be granulepos |
 
  0xff == 0. If we can have up to seven intervening P frames, they
 
  could be numbered in granulepos-of-iframe + 0x20, 0x40,
 
  0x60... 0xe0. B frames between the I and P frames would use the
 
  remaining five bits and be numbers as sub-I and sub-P frames 1
 
  through 31. Thus, starting from zero, the frames/packets in the
 
  pattern IPBBPBBI would be numbered 0x000, 0x020, 0x021, 0x022,
 
  0x040, 0x041, 0x042, 0x100.
 
  
   If we wish to preserve the ability to represent a timebase, the
+
   If we wish to preserve the ability to represent a timebase, the granulepos number for I frames need not be increased monotonically and shifted; it can be used to represent the frame number. The above example becomes 0x000, 0x020, 0x021, 0x022, 0x040, 0x041, 0x042, 0x700. To get real frame number (from an I frame), we just shift granulepos >> 8. This scheme can be taken further or modified to get frame number from any video frame.
  granulepos number for I frames need not be increased monotonically
 
  and shifted; it can be used to represent the frame number. The
 
  above example becomes 0x000, 0x020, 0x021, 0x022, 0x040, 0x041,
 
  0x042, 0x700. To get real frame number (from an I frame), we just
 
  shift granulepos >> 8. This scheme can be taken further or modified
 
  to get frame number from any video frame.
 
  
   In this way, we can always seek, first time, to a desired key frame
+
   In this way, we can always seek, first time, to a desired key frame page (by seeking to Ogg page 'x' where x | 0xff == 0). In addition, each frame still has a unique frame number and also a clear 'group' number, potentially useful information to the decoder. Lastly, granulepos is still semantically correct, although it is now, in a sense, representing a whole.fractional frame number for buffering purposes.
  page (by seeking to Ogg page 'x' where x | 0xff == 0). In
 
  addition, each frame still has a unique frame number and also a
 
  clear 'group' number, potentially useful information to the decoder.
 
  Lastly, granulepos is still semantically correct, although it is
 
  now, in a sense, representing a whole.fractional frame number for
 
  buffering purposes.
 
  
 
Scheme Four: Extra 'Seekpos' Field / Straw Man
 
Scheme Four: Extra 'Seekpos' Field / Straw Man
  
   Another possibility requires extension of the current Ogg page
+
   Another possibility requires extension of the current Ogg page format. Although older players would reject any such extended pages as invalid, we do have versioning and typing fields, so there's not actually any compatibility problems with current Ogg pages... in the future.
  format. Although older players would reject any such extended pages
 
  as invalid, we do have versioning and typing fields, so there's not
 
  actually any compatibility problems with current Ogg pages... in the
 
  future.
 
  
   The idea in this scheme is to keep the current granulepos as a frame
+
   The idea in this scheme is to keep the current granulepos as a frame number field (ala scheme 1), but also add a new field 'seekpos' that is used, rather than granulepos, in seeking. The seekpos would represent the number of the last keyframe that passed by.
  number field (ala scheme 1), but also add a new field 'seekpos' that
 
  is used, rather than granulepos, in seeking. The seekpos would
 
  represent the number of the last keyframe that passed by.
 
  
 
   advantages:
 
   advantages:
  
     1) The net effect of this strategy is to modify scheme 1 to only
+
     1) The net effect of this strategy is to modify scheme 1 to only require one bisection seek rather than two. Some amount of code simplification (over scheme 1) at the decision-making level.
    require one bisection seek rather than two. Some amount of code
 
    simplification (over scheme 1) at the decision-making level.
 
  
 
   disadvantages:
 
   disadvantages:
  
     1) The Ogg format will need to be revved. No current (ala 1.0) Ogg
+
     1) The Ogg format will need to be revved. No current (ala 1.0) Ogg code will understand the new pages.
    code will understand the new pages.
 
  
     2) The header becomes larger, from a minimum size of 27 bytes to a
+
     2) The header becomes larger, from a minimum size of 27 bytes to a minimum size of 35.
    minimum size of 35.
 
  
     3) This strategy only enhances keyframes; it is of no use in other
+
     3) This strategy only enhances keyframes; it is of no use in other odd seeking cases.
    odd seeking cases.
 
  
     4) Gives no more information than scheme 3, but is still more
+
     4) Gives no more information than scheme 3, but is still more complicated, both in code and API (Ogg would have to understand keyframes).
    complicated, both in code and API (Ogg would have to understand
 
    keyframes).
 
  
   Thus, there's no substantial reason to prefer extending the format
+
   Thus, there's no substantial reason to prefer extending the format over a scheme that's possible within the existing framework. Note that schemes 1-3 can all be implemented within the Ogg stream today.
  over a scheme that's possible within the existing framework. Note
 
  that schemes 1-3 can all be implemented within the Ogg stream today.
 
  
 
Monty
 
Monty

Revision as of 14:48, 12 February 2008

Granulepos encoding and How seeking really works

From an Email by Monty, 13th Sept 2002


Folks have noticed that the documentation is semi-silent about how to properly encode the granule position and interleave synchronization of keyframe-based video. The primary reasons for this:

a) we at Xiph hadn't had to do it yet

b) there are several easy possibilities, and the longer we had to think about it before mandating One True Spec, the better that spec would likely be.

The lack of a painfully explicit spec has led to the theory that it's not possible; that's not true, there are a few ways to do it. Several require no extension to Ogg stream v 0. A last way requires an extra field (a point against it), but does not actually break any stream that currently exists.

The time has come to lay down the spec as we're currently building the real abstraction layers in a concrete Ogg framework now where the Ogg engine, the codecs, and the overarching Ogg control layers are neatly put into boxes connected in formalized ways. Below I go into detail about each scheme in a 'thinking aloud' sort of way. This is not because I haven't already given the matter sufficient thought, it is because I wish to give the reader sufficient background information to understand why one way is better than the others. This is not a call for input so much as an educational effort (and a public sanity check of my thinking; please do pipe up if it appears I missed a salient point).

Starting Assumptions:

1) Ogg is not a non-linear format. It is not a replacement for the scripting system of a DVD player. It is a media transport format designed to do nothing more than deliver content, in a stream, and have all the pieces arrive on time and in sync. It is not designed to *prevent* more complex use of content, it merely does not implement anything beyond a linear representation of the data contained within. If you want to build a real non-linear format, build it *from* Ogg, not *into* Ogg. This has been the intent from day 1.

2) The Ogg layer does not know specifics of the codec data it's multiplexing into a stream. It knows nothing beyond 'Oooo, packets!', that the packets belong to different buckets, that the packets go in order, and that packets have position markers. Ogg does not even have a concept of 'time'; it only knows about the sequentially increasing, unitless position markers. It is up to higher layers which have access to the codec APIs to assign and convert units of framing or time.

3) Given pre-cached decode headers, a player may seek into a stream at any point and begin decode. It may be the case that audio may start after video by a fraction of a second, or video might be blank until the stream hits the next keyframe, but this simplest case must just work, and there will be sufficient information to maintain perfect cross-media sync.

4) (This departs from current reality, but it will be the reality very soon; vorbisfile currently blurs the careful abstraction I'm about to describe) Seeking at an arbitrary level of precision is a distributed abstraction in the larger Ogg picture. At the lowest-level Ogg stream abstraction, seeking is one operation: "find me the page from logical stream 'n' with granule position 'x'". All more complex seeking operations are a function of a higher-level layer (with knowledge of the media types and codec in use) making intelligent use of this lowest Ogg abstraction. The Ogg stream abstraction need deal with nothing more complex than 'find this page'.

The various granulepos strategies for keyframes concern this last point.

The basic issue with video from which complexity arises is that frames often depend on previous and possibly future frames. This happens in a larger, general category of codecs whose streams may not begin decode from just any packet as well as packets that may not represent an entire frame, or even a fixed-time sampling algorithm. It is a mistake to design a seeking system tied to an exact set of very specific cases. While one could implement an explicit keyframe mechanism at the Ogg level, this mechanism would not cover any of the other interesting seeking cases while, as I'll show below, the mechanism would not actually be necessary.

There will be a few complaints that Ogg is being unnecessarily subtle and shifts a great deal of complexity into software which a few extra page header fields could eliminate. Consider the following:

1) Ogg was designed to impose a roughly .5-1% over the raw packet data over a wide range of packet usage patterns. 'A few extra fields' begins inflating that figure for specific special cases that only apply to a few stream types. Right now there is no header field that is not general to every stream. There is no fat in the page headers.

2) The Ogg-level seeking algorithm is exceptionally simple and can be described in a single sentence: "Find the earliest page with a granulepos less than but closest to 'x'". This shifts the onus of assembling more complex seeking operation requiring knowledge of a specific media type into a higher layer that has knowledge of that media type. The higher layer becomes responsible for determining for what 'x' Ogg should search. The division of labor is clear and sensible.

3) Complex, precise seeking operations are still contained entirely within the framework, just at a higher layer than Ogg-stream. At no time is an application developer required to deal with seeking mechanisms within an Ogg stream or to manually maintain stream synchronization.

High level handwaving- How seeking really works:

The granulepos is intended to mean, roughly, 'If I stop decode at the end of this page, I will get data from my decoder up to position 'granulepos'. The granulepos simultaneously provides seeking information and a 'length-of-stream' indicator. Depending on the codec, it can also usually be used to indicate a timebase, but that isn't our problem right now.

By inference, the granulepos is also used to construct a value 'y' such that 'if I begin decode *from* point 'y', I will get data beginning at position 'granulepos'. Although in some codecs, y == granulepos, that is not necessarily the case when decode can't begin at any arbitrary packet. The granulepos encoding method candidates I will now describe affect exactly the 'granulepos' to 'y' conversion process. Note also that none of these affect Ogg, only the higher decision-making layers... Different circumstanced necessitated by different codecs can lead to different valid choices, all of which work as far as Ogg is concerned. However, for our I-/P-/B-frame video case, there is a pretty clear winner.

Strategy 1: Straight Granulepos, Keyframes Are Not Our Problem.

 In this scheme, the granulepos is a simple frame counter. The seeking decision-maker in the codec's framework plugin is responsible for determining if a frame is a keyframe or not, and if it can't begin decode from a given frame, it must request another earlier frame until it finds a keyframe. If the codec so desires, it can store 'what is my keyframe?' information in the stream packets.
 This case means that each seek to a *specific* frame in a video stream will generally result in two Ogg seeks; a first seek to the the requested frame, then a second seek backwards to find that frame's keyframe.
 A larger concern is the semantic accuracy of the granulepos; it's intended to reflect position accurately when decoding forward. In this scheme, it's fine for a P-frame to update the counter (as it can be decoded going strictly forward), but B frames will also advance the counter; they can't be decoded without subsequent P or I frames. Thus, the semantic value of granulepos no longer strictly represents 'we can decode up to 'granulepos' at the end of this frame'.

Strategy 2: Granulepos Represents Keyframes Only

 In this scheme, only keyframes update the granulepos (monotonically or non-monotonically). It simplifies the seeking process to a
 keyframe as an Ogg-level seek to page 'x' will always yield a page with a keyframe. In addition, granulepos will also always mean 'we can decode up to *at least* this point in the stream. If the stream is truncated at P or B frames past granulepos, the extra frames can be discarded. (A special case would need to be defined to terminate a stream that doesn't end on an I frame).
 The difficulty with this scheme is that it presents slightly more for the software level decoder to track; a proper frame number could not be determined internally without tracking from an I frame. Also, the granulepos an Ogg page would not necessarily map to the last packet on the page, or even any packet on that page; multiple sequential pages could have the same granulepos. It is conceptually slightly messy, although the 'messiness' does not make it at all impractical.

Strategy 3: Granulepos Encodes Some State

 In some ways, this strategy is the most semantically 'over clever', but also the easiest to implement and the one that gives the most correct, up to date sync information. Pending comments, it is the I/P/B video strategy I currently favor.
 The granulepos is 64 bits, a size that is absolutely necessary if, for example, it represents the PCM sample count in an audio codec. When being used to encode video frame number, however, it is comparatively absurdly large*.
 * note that although granulepos is not permitted to wrap around, we can simply begin a new logical stream segment with a new serial number should a 30fps video stream ever hit the ten-billion year mark.
 Thus we clearly have room to skim a few bits off the bottom of granulepos to represent I, P or B frame. These bits are not used as flags, but rather, frame representation becomes a counting problem; We do this such that the count is still always strictly increasing.
 For example, we know that I frames will never be more than 256 frames apart and P frames no more than 31 B frames apart, the granulepos of an I frame can be defined to always be granulepos | 0xff == 0. If we can have up to seven intervening P frames, they could be numbered in granulepos-of-iframe + 0x20, 0x40, 0x60... 0xe0. B frames between the I and P frames would use the remaining five bits and be numbers as sub-I and sub-P frames 1 through 31. Thus, starting from zero, the frames/packets in the pattern IPBBPBBI would be numbered 0x000, 0x020, 0x021, 0x022, 0x040, 0x041, 0x042, 0x100.
 If we wish to preserve the ability to represent a timebase, the granulepos number for I frames need not be increased monotonically and shifted; it can be used to represent the frame number. The above example becomes 0x000, 0x020, 0x021, 0x022, 0x040, 0x041, 0x042, 0x700. To get real frame number (from an I frame), we just shift granulepos >> 8. This scheme can be taken further or modified to get frame number from any video frame.
 In this way, we can always seek, first time, to a desired key frame page (by seeking to Ogg page 'x' where x | 0xff == 0). In addition, each frame still has a unique frame number and also a clear 'group' number, potentially useful information to the decoder. Lastly, granulepos is still semantically correct, although it is now, in a sense, representing a whole.fractional frame number for buffering purposes.

Scheme Four: Extra 'Seekpos' Field / Straw Man

 Another possibility requires extension of the current Ogg page format. Although older players would reject any such extended pages as invalid, we do have versioning and typing fields, so there's not actually any compatibility problems with current Ogg pages... in the future.
 The idea in this scheme is to keep the current granulepos as a frame number field (ala scheme 1), but also add a new field 'seekpos' that is used, rather than granulepos, in seeking. The seekpos would represent the number of the last keyframe that passed by.
 advantages:
   1) The net effect of this strategy is to modify scheme 1 to only require one bisection seek rather than two. Some amount of code simplification (over scheme 1) at the decision-making level.
 disadvantages:
   1) The Ogg format will need to be revved. No current (ala 1.0) Ogg code will understand the new pages.
   2) The header becomes larger, from a minimum size of 27 bytes to a minimum size of 35.
   3) This strategy only enhances keyframes; it is of no use in other odd seeking cases.
   4) Gives no more information than scheme 3, but is still more complicated, both in code and API (Ogg would have to understand keyframes).
 Thus, there's no substantial reason to prefer extending the format over a scheme that's possible within the existing framework. Note that schemes 1-3 can all be implemented within the Ogg stream today.

Monty