XiphWiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:PortablePlayersv2

2006-11-20T17:08:25Z

Hankwang: /* Yet another layout discussion */

== Layout of the PortablePlayers list ==

Wouldn't this list be easier to read if there was a seperate heading for each product, sorted by manufacturer? --[[User:Blenda|Blenda]] 09:13, 11 January 2006 (PST)

: There'd be a ''lot'' of entries then, I like the idea of a table format as suggested by G Markham on the Vorbis list recently (cut and pasted below). Although I think providing links to suppliers for each device and trying to maintain up-to-date availability is going too far.
: [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 09:19, 24 February 2006 (PST)

::Make it a table - or rather, four tables, for each combination of flash/hard disk and current/historical, with historical data below current. Split it up by model, not just by manufacturer - one manufacturer can have many different models with widely differing feature sets. Provide a link to the manufacturer's product page for each model, and either a table-based or a freeform list of commonly-sought features (microphone, radio, capacity, other formats). Provide details of which countries a player can be purchased in and, if it's not commonly available, details of how to find it in major markets (US, Europe).

::I want to be able to come to the page (as I tried to recently) and say "I need a flash-based player with a built-in USB connector and a mic, available in Europe", and find which models I should be googling for without difficulty.
::Gervase Markham on vorbis mailing list, inserted by [[User:Imalone|Imalone]]

: Here's a quick attempt I put together:

{{PlayersTableHeader|ManufacturerLink=[http://www.iaudio.com iAudio]}}
{{PlayersTableBody|Model=G3|MemType=Flash (builtin)
|MemSize=256MB, 512MB, 1GB
|UMS=Yes
|NoUpd=Yes
|Power=AA
|LineIn=Yes
|Mic=Yes
|Radio=Yes
|Formats= MP3, MP2, Ogg, WMA, ASF and WAV
|Comments= Very white, available from online retailers in UK
}}
{{PlayersTableBody|Model=Pianist
|MemType=Savant
|MemSize=Indefinite
|UMS=No
|NoUpd=Yes
|Power=n/a
|LineIn=NA
|Mic=No
|Radio=No
|Formats=Manuscript
|Comments=No, they don't really make this.
}}
{{PlayersTableFooter}}

: Obviously templates would be of some use here—someone more wiki-wise than me want to suggest something? Also those check boxes, I had a quick look but haven't got a way to do them that looks good (again, if you could come up with some convoluted solution, then it could be templated for convenience). Perhaps little icons might be easier for a few things like batteries, capacity, memory type where there tends to be a limited number of common choices.
: [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 09:56, 24 February 2006 (PST)

: On reflection, column 5 should be 'without firmware update' (or a less confusing text), because then support without firmware update would be green and green is good (or at least consistent). Left red above so you can see the contrast until someone does a less fully featured player. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 17:23, 24 February 2006 (PST)

: Changed this to an example template based table. XiphWiki is running on a version of mediawiki that doesn't support defaults so all fields need to be specified (even if empty). There is an 'NA' entry provided alongside 'Yes' and 'No' for the binary fields. All are case sensitive. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 08:25, 23 March 2006 (PST)

==New layout proposal==
I think the table gets too wide this way (I changed a bit to make it more narrow). It hardly fits on my 1400x1050 pixel screen and adding any other features that might be relevant is cumbersome. Too bad you can't put the header data vertically. I propose the following layout instead:
{{PlayersTableHeader2|ManufacturerLink=[http://www.iaudio.com iAudio]}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=G3
|StorageCap=flash 256M, 512M, 1G
|Comm=ums(20M)
|Formats=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp3.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp2.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-ogg.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wma.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-asf.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wav.png
|OggSupp=q0-q8, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-aa.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-fm.png
|Comments=
}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=5
|StorageCap=flash 256M, 512M, 1G
|Comm=ums(20M)
|Formats= http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp3.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp2.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-ogg.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wma.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-asf.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wav.png
|OggSupp=q0-q8, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-aaa.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-fm.png
|Comments=
}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=U2
|StorageCap=flash 256M, 512M, 1G
|Comm=ums(20M)
|Formats= http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp3.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp2.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-ogg.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wma.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-asf.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wav.png
|OggSupp=q0-q8, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-lio.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-fm.png
|Comments=
}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=G2
|StorageCap=flash 1G
|Comm=ums(6M)
|Formats= http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp3.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp2.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-ogg.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wma.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-asf.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wav.png
|OggSupp=q0-q8, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-aa.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png?
|Comments=
}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=U3
|StorageCap=flash 512M, 1G, 2G
|Comm=ums(35M)
|Formats= http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp3.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp2.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-ogg.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wma.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-flac.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wav.png mpeg4, jpg, txt
|OggSupp=q0-q10, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-lip.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-col.png
|Comments=
}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=F1
|StorageCap=flash 1G
|Comm=ums(20M)
|Formats= http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp3.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wma.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-ogg.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-asf.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wav.png
|OggSupp=q0-q8?, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-lip.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-fm.png?
|Comments=
}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=X5
|StorageCap=HD 20G, 30G, 60G
|Comm=ums(480M)
|Formats= http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp3.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp2.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-ogg.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wma.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-asf.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wav.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-flac.png mpeg4, jpg, txt
|OggSupp=q0-q10, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-lio.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-fm.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-col.png
|Comments=Rockbox in alpha stage
}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=6
|StorageCap=HD 4G
|Comm=ums
|Formats= http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp3.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp2.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-ogg.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wma.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-asf.png? http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wav.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-flac.png
|OggSupp=q0-q10?, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-lio.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-col.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-otg.png
|Comments=
}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=M3
|StorageCap=HD 20G, 40G
|Comm=ums(480M)
|Formats= http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp3.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp2.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-ogg.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wma.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wav.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-flac.png
|OggSupp=q0-q10, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-lio.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-fm.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-col.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-rm.png
|Comments=
}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=M5
|StorageCap=HD 20G
|Comm=ums(480M)
|Formats= http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp3.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp2.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-ogg.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wma.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-asf.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wav.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-flac.png
|OggSupp=q0-q10, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-lio.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-col.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-rm.png
|Comments=
}}

{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=A2
|StorageCap=HD 20G, 30G
|Comm=ums(480M)
|Formats= http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp3.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp2.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-ogg.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wma.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-asf.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wav.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-flac.png jpg, png txt, bmp, wmv9, avi, xvid, divx
|OggSupp=q0-q10, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-lip.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-col.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-otg.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-spk.png
|Comments=
}}
{{PlayersTableFooter2}}
{{PlayersTableLegend2}}

What do you think? [[User:Hankwang|Hankwang]] 17:22, 24 April 2006 (PDT)
Updated example table with all current iAudio models
----
It's neater than mine, but the Features codes are a bit cryptic (the original intention of redesigning being that people should easily be able to find a player that meets their needs). I think we need someone who can design icons for it, and possibly a newer version of mediawiki which allows default arguments. Definite improvement though. (Sorry to be so long in responding, a bit busy recently) [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 12:51, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Funny about the G3 actually, the iAudio website definitely says up to Q8, but mine will play Q10 (one test though).
----
OK, I made a few icons. Didn't want to spend too much time on creating them and they do not yet cover all features that I thought of, but it looks nicer indeed, don't you agree? Problem: xiphwiki doesn't support [[Special:Upload|file uploading]], so I hotlinked them directly to a separate website. Not a good idea as a permanent solution. Who can enable/disable features on the wiki? [[User:Hankwang|Hankwang]] 15:08, 2 May 2006 (PDT)
----
I emailed the Vorbis mailing list responding to the original thread on this topic to see if Xiph are willing to upload files and possibly upgrade the Wiki (default arguments for templates in newer versions would be really useful for this). No response yet. I doubt they'll ever turn on uploading because of the possibility for abuse, but for this it would make sense for them to host the icon set as part of the site. I'll try the Xiph list instead if nothing happens. May be easier to get someone in a position of power on IRC though. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 06:00, 19 May 2006 (PDT)
-----
OK, let's see what will happens. Otherwise I could put this stuff on the HydrogenAudio wiki. If the icons can be hosted on the xiph server (not as uploads), we'll have to think of a reasonable list of other features that can be iconified:
Firmware update required; vorbis comment support; tag database; gapless; communication through Media transfer protocol (MTP), ethernet? Any others? [[User:Hankwang|Hankwang]] 08:57, 19 May 2006 (PDT)

:Icons disable text searching of formats and features. How about:

{| class="wikitable" border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0"
!player !! storage !! com(spd) !! ogg !! other formats !! bat !! fm !! mic !! features
|-
! colspan="9" | comments
|-
|[http://www.cowonglobal.com/product/product_G3_feature.php Cowon iAudio G3]
|flash 256M, 512M, 1G
|ums(20M)
|q0-q8, vc
|asf mp2 mp3 wav wma
| bgcolor="cyan" |aa
| bgcolor="lime" |fm
| bgcolor="lime" |mic
| linein
|-
| colspan="9" |
|-
|[http://www.cowonglobal.com/product/product_U2.php Cowon iAudio U2]
|flash 256M, 512M, 1G
|ums(20M)
|q0-q8, vc
|asf mp2 mp3 wav wma
| bgcolor="green" |lio
| bgcolor="lime" |fm
| bgcolor="lime" |mic
| linein
|-
| colspan="9" |cnet editors choice 2004, '''<span style="color:red;">firmware GNU/Linux unfriendly</span>'''
|-
|}

:-- [[User:Jeandré|Jeandré]], 2006-11-04[[User talk:Jeandré|t]]08:29z
:: Looks nice, I like the comment-below format, since it doesn't have to take much space if unused. Again this could hopefully be templatised, but I think it might be time to try it out a bit first. You're probably right about icons, maybe icons + text (templates would make that easier for users adding comments as well as making changes to the format, it's why I keep talking about them). Will see if I can find time to create a table version of the current page (other people are of course welcome to do it if they find time before me). -- [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 15:53, 17 November 2006 (PST)
----
How 'bout a column for when the player was released to market?

Eg. the date when the first of the player in question was available for sale 'for real' to the general public. Just one date, either internationally or locally doesn't matter whichever was earlier; perhaps a note on the 'Comments' column if not released internationally, etc. It would be useful in identifying wether the player in question is still being sold or already ancient history. Maybe it should be noted in the 'Comments' too if the player has been discontinued.

Awesome table, BTW. --[[User:Lemi4|Lemi4]] 00:47, 19 August 2006 (PDT)

== Yet another layout discussion ==

It looks like the tables thing is starting to come together, now for some outside the box thinking: there are a lot of players listed, and the table format will actually make listings ''longer''. What can be done? Split the pages alphabetically by manufacturer (makes it harder to find a player you don't already know about)? Split them by features? Something incredibly unconventional but inspired?

Seperate note, it's about time to give the layout discussion its own page, I'm not sure if that's just a cut and paste job. -- [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 16:02, 17 November 2006 (PST)
:Hi, I saw hits from this new page on my website for the included pictograms in my proposal; I haven't been here since a while. I personally think the discussion is of limited value if the admins here are not willing to allow image uploads, but if you want to go the way of dropping the pictograms and accepting nonobvious abbreviations... I think a better approach is to drop the Wiki concept and put everything into a database with a search function. I could host it on my own site for that matter. [[User:Hankwang|Hankwang]] 09:08, 20 November 2006 (PST)

Talk:PortablePlayers

2006-05-19T15:57:16Z

Hankwang: /* New layout proposal */

There are many more portable players by TrekStor than the i.beat 500 supporting ogg vorbis.

Please add products to the main page.

I would like to know which Players can '''record''' in OGG?! -- [[User:217.186.150.213|217.186.150.213]] 17:03, 26 Dec 2004 (PST)

== Pretec Allegro may need firmware update ==

I recently purchased a Pretec Allegro, but was unable to play Oggs for three months, until the firmware update was made available on 14 or 15 March 2005. Now it works well! (So far, listening to -q3 Oggs). I'd hope that units purchased after this date already has the firmware update, but you never know. Installing the update is as simple as placing the .rom on the USB-storage-device media (eg flash disk), starting up the unit, and pressing the play button. -- Hugo van der Merwe
: How much battery runtime do you get playing Oggs compared with playing mp3? [[User:Phr|Phr]] 02:05, 27 Aug 2005 (PDT)

== Any player with SD-Cards ==

Every single ogg-capable portable player out there seems to come with built-in flash memory. Which is stupid, because I don't want to fire up my computer and plug in the player every time I get tired of the tracks on my player. Plus flash memory has a limited lifetime (write cycles) and so does your player with built-in memory. The same applies for built-in rechargable batteries.

Now when would you ever need to buy your second device without any moving parts if you could just change flash memory and batteries? Ok, that's the industrie's point of view but not mine. I want to go on vacation with music and batteries for one week of non-stop music - without a power source or computer nearby.

So, any hint to where I might find a portable audio player that can play back ogg vorbis files and uses SD flash cards (and preferably AAA-batteries) would be greatly appreciated.
* Me too! If the [http://enox.co.kr/2004/eng/product/product_830_01.asp Enox EMX-830] took SD cards it'd be perfect. --[[User:Rgm|rgm]] 14:41, 7 Nov 2005 (PST)

----

The Pretec Allegro is not the slickest player out there, it's LCD backlight seems to give off a high-pitched whine, which not everyone can hear (it kind-of screams in my ears though, so I put the backlight timer on 1 second so it doesn't scream too long). It is, however, the only one I now know of that can play Oggs, and uses removable media. If you want a nicely portable device, you have to use Pretec's "iDisk tiny" usb flash disk, the only thing that will fit inside. You can also, however, connect some USB SD-card reader with it's cable, then listen to Oggs off of SD. A little unwieldy, but, it works, and is the only thing *I* know of. (I stopped following developments in December though, when I bought it...)

== Samsung's Yepp Ogg Vorbis support ==

JoshuaRodman wrote regarding the yp-t7z:
:I received such a unit. It plays oggs encodd at -q 4, 5 and 6 without error that I have noticed. However it seems underdocumented. It plays the files in an order which is neither alpha sorted nor numeric sorted, and it does not support ogg tags. -- JoshuaRodman (March 28, 2005)
:I've investigated more. Some music encoded at even -q 5 will break up or cause difficulty. I suspect these pieces have bitrate spikes. As for the ordering, the YP-T7 plays files in 'readdir' order. That is it does not sort the files out of the filesystem at all. In practice, this means it will play the files in the order that you add them to the directory. If you are a windows user dragging and dropping the files onto the player, this problem will not affect you. A linux or possible Mac user may need to do minor scripting to alleviate this issue. --JoshuaRodman (April 13, 2005)
:I thought I came back and clarified this, but don't have hte energy to review the edit history. In any event, there are no problems with OGG playback on my YP-T7z at this time. All symptoms have evaporated with firmware updates or magic. [[User:JoshuaRodman|JoshuaRodman]] 01:27, 7 April 2006 (PDT)

Spaz added for the YP-T7Z:
:After using the newest firmware I have had no issues playing OGG files. Any lockup or playback issues I had experienced went away. --Spaz (Dec 23, 2005)

Ulrich added for the YP-MT6Z:
:I think my manual says the first 8 characters of a filename are considered for sorting. As my files have the "tracknumber" tag, I wrote some Perl script that prepends that number (two digits plus a space) to the track names when being copied onto the player. I'm not sure about decoding problems, but there may be some. I encoded my files at q6 or higher using "oggenc" from Linux. Tags for title and performer are displayed unless you follow the Vorbis specification to create one tag for each performer. However, be aware that default settings have tag display disabled!

:The chip inside seems to be a Sigmatel STMP3400M, natively specified for MP3 with addon codecs.

:It would be great of Samsung Europe would release firmware with release notes (the Korean site has newer firmware, but no English, really!). There's also some inoffical newer firmware around, but also without any release notes. Official firmware is 2.122 (on my player as delivered and on CD and website).

:Recently I decided to remove some Ogg files from the player and add a few new ones. Unfortunately this resulted in some directories (usually structured as <artist>/<album>/<track-number> <track-title>) being unplayable. There's just a message saying "No Entry". Interestingly this happens with directories that did play before removing some files. Newer firmware didn't change anything about that. I suspect that this is caused by either 1) special characters in the file names (I use UTF-8 encoding), 2) special characters in the Vorbis comment, 3) length of file names, 4) number of files in the file system, or 5) amount of free space (my player has just 90kB free now). One symptom is that in Settings->System->About there are fewer files counted than actually exist in the filesystem. And yes, I've checked the filesystem several times. I have contacted German support, and they replied they'll investigate, but they did not ask back about any details (and support doesn't allow to reply).

:With the new inofficial firmware 2.290 I had a few crashes: The player was playing a continuous tone, and the only way to stop it was to remove the battiery for a moment. However as the effect was not repeatable when playing the same file, I can believe that some mobile phone triggered that. The other thing is the fact that my player came without FM radio. The newer firmware has the radio item in firmware, but as soon as I select it, the player will hang until the battery is removed. OK, that's inofficial firmware...
--(Ulrich on 2006-02-02)

::Two questions: 1) are ogg tags not being displayed even when the Tag option is toggle to On in the settings menu? 2) how does it handle -q 4 and -q 6 — is it just -q 5, or is it -q 5 and higher/lower? — [[User:Saxifrage|Saxifrage]] 01:07, 14 Apr 2005 (PDT)

:::I have seen no evidence of vorbis tags being supported; they are not displayed. I have generally encoded at -q 5 as an attempt to stay inside the "supported" bitrate boundaries. I find that the bitrate and breakups are not directly correlated, but somewhat related. This is no surprise if the problem is CPU time exhaustion. I have not found any particular quality encoding to fail either reliably or often. In general, speeds above the stated maximum supported bitrates have seemed to work fine. No lockups of any kind have been encountered. Incidentally, over 90% of my ogg files have been processed by vorbisgain. --JoshuaRodman (July 5, 2005)

I just bought one of these and I'm baffled by its erratic Ogg support. Firmware version 1.541 seems to support tags just fine, though I haven't noticed the alpha-sorting issue (haven't looked). However, I find that it can't play all my Ogg files (freezes when it tries to load the file), and there's nothing systematic that I've found to account for this. It plays some files I encoded [[Jan 29]]-[[Jan 30]], [[2005]], but there are files that don't work before and after that date. The files that work so far were encoded with nominal bitrates of 128 and 192, while others that don't work were at 160. All encodings have used the same program (Grip under Linux). Ogg files that I've encoded with oggenc directly for testing purposes at 160 nominal bitrate work just fine. There's just something about most of my existing files.

I've emailed a support request to Samsung Canada, so I'll report what I find out then. Meanwhile I'm doing a bunch of rips with Grip to test different nominal bitrates. [[User:Saxifrage|Saxifrage]] 10:53, 12 Apr 2005 (PDT)

:Results from my experiments with different nominal bitrates are summarised in this table:
{| align=center border=1
|+YP-T6 Ogg Vorbis support
|-
!   !! Tags
| none || tag* || tag + replaygain || replaygain
|-
!Bitrate (nominal) ||   ||   ||   ||   ||  
|-
| 128
|   || works || works || works || ?
|-
| 160
|   || works || works || '''freezes''' || works
|-
| 192
|   || works || works || works || ?
|}
:<nowiki>* </nowiki>"tag" means just the regular complement of artist, album, title, year, and genre.
:"?" indicates that the case was not tested

:My conclusion is that the Samsung YP-T6 can't handle Ogg Vorbis files encoded at 160 nominal bitrate if [[Wikipedia:ReplayGain|ReplayGain]] tags are applied to the file. Note too that I tested a file without real RG tags, but with the normal tags plus tags with different names than the standard RG tags but with the same name-length and same length of arguments; this was to isolate whether it was a ReplayGain-specific bug or a general tag-handling bug. Thus, I suspect that the problem is a buffer overflow in tag code of the firmware. '''Note''' that I have only tested files encoded with nominal bitrates, not files encoded with oggenc's quality settings.
:The few files in my collection that have worked were encoded at different bitrates (either 128 or 192), but unfortunately the vast majority are 160, and I need ReplayGain to be able to listen to my collection on the PC without constantly changing the volume. As a workaround I may write a script to strip the ReplayGain tags as they're moved to my player, but this rather sucks. — [[User:Saxifrage|Saxifrage]] 12:36, 12 Apr 2005 (PDT)

=== Yepp YP-T7JZ/T7JX ===

Samsung appears to have model bumped the yp-t7 series with the yp-t7j series. The spec sheet does not mention OGG/Vorbis as a supported file format. This seems a real shame as the t7 worked well. Does anyone have anything more conclusive? [[User:JoshuaRodman|JoshuaRodman]] 08:26, 6 January 2006 (PST)

=== Yepp MT-6X ===

:I ([[User:Gav|Gav]]) own a Yepp MT-6X and I don't come to the same conclusions. I tried to remove the Gain tags and it didn't improve anything. Here are some tests I made :

{| align=center border=1
|+YP-MT6X Ogg Vorbis support
|-
! Encoder version || Filename || Nominal bitrate || Playback test
|-
|Xiphophorus libVorbis I 20000508 (1.0 beta 1 or beta 2) || 01 - In Tenebris.ogg || unset (160 kbps) || KO
|-
|Xiphophorus libVorbis I 20001031 (1.0 beta 3) || 01 - A Day Without Rain.ogg || 160 kbps || KO
|-
|Xiphophorus libVorbis I 20010225 (1.0 beta 4) || 01 - Sunday Bloody Sunday.ogg || 128 kbps || KO
|-
|Xiphophorus libVorbis I 20010615 (1.0 rc1) || 01 - Remede.ogg || 128 kbps || KO
|-
|Xiphophorus libVorbis I 20010813 (1.0 rc2) || 01 - Devil's Haircut.ogg || 192 kbps || OK
|-
|Xiphophorus libVorbis I 20011231 (1.0 rc3) || 01 - Encore Une Chance.ogg || 112 kbps || OK
|-
|Xiph.Org libVorbis I 20020717 (1.0) || 01 - Inferno (Unleash The Fire).ogg || 160 kbps || KO
|-
|Xiph.Org libVorbis I 20030909 (1.0.1) || 01 - You Will Be a Hot Dancer.ogg || 128 kbps || OK
|-
|}

Yes, a 1.0 file fails... I also tested a 8 second file encoded at q1,q2,...,q10 using 20020717 (1.0) and it worked for every quality ! So not every 1.0-encoded file fails. See [[YeppGavDetails]] for details about the files.

: OK. I've done extensive tests and I can confirm what Saxifrage suggested : there is indeed a buffer overflow in the tag handling ! When the framing bit of the tag header is at offset >= 0x18C, it fails. If it is at exactly 0x18C, it reboots or freezes. If it is at offset > 0x18C, it always freezes. This was tested with firmware 1.101 and vorbis encoder 1.0.

: The file encoded using libVorbis 1.0 in the table above has a too large tag and that's why it fails.

: In summary, the Yepp can only play Vorbis when it is encoded with libVorbis version >= 1.0rc2 AND when the framing bit of the tag header is at offset < 0x18C.

=== Yepp YP-T6 ===

I've got this model with 256MB of flash memory, and unlike above, I ran into problems when I tried to play very-low-bitrate files (< 64kbps, CD format). I encoded them using [http://www.geocities.jp/aoyoume/aotuv/index.html aoTuV-beta4] experiment version from aoyumi (which creates (or should create) perfectly standard and conforming files), using command-line oggenc under linux. The qualities I used for these problematic files are -q-1 (~45kbps) and -q-2 (~32kbps), and when the player tries to open the file it freezes, but for qualities from -q0 it works perfectly.

Apart from that, I've had no real problem before, using mostly -q6 files from RC3 and 1.0, without tags or with standard ones. Sometimes the sound is distorted a lot for a few tenths of seconds, it seems to be related to bitrate peaks (applauds, etc.).

Hope this will be useful, anyway thanks for the investigations on this player, I also realized the lack of information on this player's ogg support. [[User:Superdupont|Superdupont]] 16:49, 2 Aug 2005 (PDT)

Edit: firmware version: 1.543

The YP-T6 seems to be almost identical to the Trekstor i.Beat Cube.

The YP-T6s sold in the US sports an FM Radio with 16 saved settings and automatic station search. Recording from a radio program to MP3 is possible. At least the German version of the YP-T6 does not have an built-in tuner.

The German web site has moved it from from "MP3 players" to the [http://av.samsung.de/subtype_tva_audiop_mp3_archiv.asp Archived MP3 players] section, while the [http://www.samsung.com/Products/DigitalAudioPlayer/MP3Players/YP_T6ZXAA.asp US] and [http://www.samsung.com/uk/products/digitalaudioplayer/flashmemory/index.asp UK] site lists it as regular model. I don't know if this indicates that Samsung is about to stop production of the T6 or if there have been problems on the German market (like restrictive radio emission laws, see built-in tuner section above).

=== Yepp YP-53 ===

I'am not sure what's inside this player. May be it's a STMP3505. With firmware 1.200 it plays Ogg Vorbis, but not at very low bitrates(-q-1 and -q-2).[[User:nostromo|nostromo]] 4 Nov 2005.

Firmware 1.200 is a bit difficult to find, googling by file name (YP-53_V1.200.zip) gets a single relevant result: [http://bluetek.co.kr/service/guide/driver_view.asp?idx=110&tbl_name=download_kr&page=3&qtype=model&query= Korean page with a link to the updater]. If it disappears, contact me ([[User:inejge|inejge]]) via this site ('''E-mail this user''' on the linked page).

The new firmware is much nicer than the previous release (my player came with V1.024):
* It plays OGGs, starting with -q0.
* The main screen is better organized.
* Menus are cleaned up (and with more eye candy).
* Non-ASCII characters in tags are displayed properly (tested with OGG).

'''Note:''' if you are encoding OGGs at -q0, ''don't'' try to set the lower bitrate limit to 64 kb/s -- the player can choke on managed bitrate files. Nominal bitrate is all that counts.

--[[User:Inejge|Inejge]] 06:32, 12 Dec 2005 (PST)

=== Yepp YP-U1 ===
'''Firmware 2.242:''' Plays Vorbis OK with tag support. Tested with aoTuV beta 4.51 and Xiph.org Vorbis between -q2 and -q8 (mostly at -q5; manual claims support from -q0 to -q10), no lockups so far. Experienced unusual distortion at one point of a particular track (loud, percussive synthetic "thunderclap") at -q5, decreasing with increasing -q value; this appears to be caused by a spike in bitrate, solved by passing encoding options
--managed -b160 -M192
--[[User:Ettlz|Ettlz]] 07:35, 25 January 2006 (PST)

== UniBrain iZak ==

Apologies if this is the wrong place for this; I'm new to wikis.

The UniBrain iZak was added, then removed recently, with the comment that it doesn't claim to play Ogg Vorbis.

The FAQ is available here: [http://www.unibrain.com/support/iZak/iZak_FAQ.htm iZak FAQ] and Question/Answer 22 says:

'22. Can iZak™ support OGG audio files?

Yes, iZak™ fully supports OGG playback using the latest firmware.'

:I was the one that removed it. In their specs linked from the main page, I saw that they listed only MP3 and WMA support for music formats. Obviously they need to update their promotional material! I went ahead and added the iZak back in, making a point to mention that the most current version of the firmware now supports Ogg Vorbis and linking to their FAQ as evidence. [[User:Saxifrage|Saxifrage]] 02:36, 5 May 2005 (PDT)

:Splendid. I didn't want to just stick it back after it had been taken out.--[[User:Ipl|Ipl]] 05:14, 5 May 2005 (PDT)

== Entempo Spirit ==

This inexpensive player from Entempo had listed Ogg as a "Supported Audio Format", but the device will not index the Ogg files into it's menus -- let alone play the files. Tested with both the stock and most recent firmware, May 29, 2005. Vendor had been contacted and removed Ogg support claims from their website, but has not provided any resolution to customers which purchased the product expecting this support. The company's webpage has disappeared as of Feb 2006.

== Lexar LDP-800 dropped ==
It seems that Lexar have abondoned the LDP-800. The following was posted by a user on [http://www.dapreview.net/comment.php?comment.news.1055 dapreview.net]
" Unfortunately, lexar will not offer the LDP-800, but will focus instead
on its existing LDP Players that already offer appealing features and
benefits to meet a variety of consumer needs."
Shame.--[[User:Ipl|Ipl]] 06:15, 22 Jul 2005 (PDT)

There's more info on that dapreview thread that indicates some confusion within Lexar. Currently, it looks like the release is going to happen in early September.

Update 2005-11-11: after inquiries to Lexar's "new products" personnel, I received a telephone message that the LDP-800 will definitely "is not going to see the light of day." Ask me if you want details. I agree that it's a shame since this looked to be an outstanding product. --[[User:dfavro|dfavro]]

== Hong Kong Dream-tech Electronic DT-202, works? please confirm ==
http://hkdream-tech.com
An ebay seller says that it can reproduce OGG. This is unconfirmed. In the manufacturer web it says: MP3, WMA, WAV, DMV and etc.

Some webpage also says that it works on Windows, Mac and Linux. Also unconfirmed.
Further investigation required.

== Trekstor i.Beat Cube ==
This player seems to be very similar to the Samsung Yepp YP-T6, possibly with the [[#Yepp_MT-6X|same problems]] regarding Ogg playback. Trekstor has moved [http://www.trekstor.de/en/produkte/mp3-player/ibeat-cube.html info about this player] from "MP3-Player" to the "Archive" section which propably means that it is not produced anymore.

== The Muzio jm300 / jm-300 does NOT play ogg ==

NB this is the jm-300 (not 100 or 200)

I bought this a month ago. I've been unable to play ogg files on
it. It simply shows these as 'etc' files and skips over them.

Pitty really, this was the main reason I chose this player.

I've seen lots of discussion about the muzio playing oggs, is there
anybody there who owns a jm300 and is actually playing oggs ? I can't
help think I've juts missed something basic.

== Layout of the PortablePlayers list ==

Wouldn't this list be easier to read if there was a seperate heading for each product, sorted by manufacturer? --[[User:Blenda|Blenda]] 09:13, 11 January 2006 (PST)

: There'd be a ''lot'' of entries then, I like the idea of a table format as suggested by G Markham on the Vorbis list recently (cut and pasted below). Although I think providing links to suppliers for each device and trying to maintain up-to-date availability is going too far.
: [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 09:19, 24 February 2006 (PST)

::Make it a table - or rather, four tables, for each combination of flash/hard disk and current/historical, with historical data below current. Split it up by model, not just by manufacturer - one manufacturer can have many different models with widely differing feature sets. Provide a link to the manufacturer's product page for each model, and either a table-based or a freeform list of commonly-sought features (microphone, radio, capacity, other formats). Provide details of which countries a player can be purchased in and, if it's not commonly available, details of how to find it in major markets (US, Europe).

::I want to be able to come to the page (as I tried to recently) and say "I need a flash-based player with a built-in USB connector and a mic, available in Europe", and find which models I should be googling for without difficulty.
::Gervase Markham on vorbis mailing list, inserted by [[User:Imalone|Imalone]]

: Here's a quick attempt I put together:

{{PlayersTableHeader|ManufacturerLink=[http://www.iaudio.com iAudio]}}
{{PlayersTableBody|Model=G3|MemType=Flash (builtin)
|MemSize=256MB, 512MB, 1GB
|UMS=Yes
|NoUpd=Yes
|Power=AA
|LineIn=Yes
|Mic=Yes
|Radio=Yes
|Formats= MP3, MP2, Ogg, WMA, ASF and WAV
|Comments= Very white, available from online retailers in UK
}}
{{PlayersTableBody|Model=Pianist
|MemType=Savant
|MemSize=Indefinite
|UMS=No
|NoUpd=Yes
|Power=n/a
|LineIn=NA
|Mic=No
|Radio=No
|Formats=Manuscript
|Comments=No, they don't really make this.
}}
{{PlayersTableFooter}}

: Obviously templates would be of some use here—someone more wiki-wise than me want to suggest something? Also those check boxes, I had a quick look but haven't got a way to do them that looks good (again, if you could come up with some convoluted solution, then it could be templated for convenience). Perhaps little icons might be easier for a few things like batteries, capacity, memory type where there tends to be a limited number of common choices.
: [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 09:56, 24 February 2006 (PST)

: On reflection, column 5 should be 'without firmware update' (or a less confusing text), because then support without firmware update would be green and green is good (or at least consistent). Left red above so you can see the contrast until someone does a less fully featured player. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 17:23, 24 February 2006 (PST)

: Changed this to an example template based table. XiphWiki is running on a version of mediawiki that doesn't support defaults so all fields need to be specified (even if empty). There is an 'NA' entry provided alongside 'Yes' and 'No' for the binary fields. All are case sensitive. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 08:25, 23 March 2006 (PST)

==New layout proposal==
I think the table gets too wide this way (I changed a bit to make it more narrow). It hardly fits on my 1400x1050 pixel screen and adding any other features that might be relevant is cumbersome. Too bad you can't put the header data vertically. I propose the following layout instead:
{{PlayersTableHeader2|ManufacturerLink=[http://www.iaudio.com iAudio]}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=G3
|StorageCap=flash 256M, 512M, 1G
|Comm=ums(20M)
|Formats=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp3.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp2.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-ogg.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wma.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-asf.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wav.png
|OggSupp=q0-q8, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-aa.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-fm.png
|Comments=
}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=5
|StorageCap=flash 256M, 512M, 1G
|Comm=ums(20M)
|Formats= http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp3.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp2.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-ogg.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wma.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-asf.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wav.png
|OggSupp=q0-q8, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-aaa.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-fm.png
|Comments=
}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=U2
|StorageCap=flash 256M, 512M, 1G
|Comm=ums(20M)
|Formats= http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp3.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp2.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-ogg.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wma.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-asf.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wav.png
|OggSupp=q0-q8, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-lio.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-fm.png
|Comments=
}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=G2
|StorageCap=flash 1G
|Comm=ums(6M)
|Formats= http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp3.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp2.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-ogg.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wma.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-asf.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wav.png
|OggSupp=q0-q8, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-aa.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png?
|Comments=
}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=U3
|StorageCap=flash 512M, 1G, 2G
|Comm=ums(35M)
|Formats= http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp3.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp2.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-ogg.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wma.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-flac.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wav.png mpeg4, jpg, txt
|OggSupp=q0-q10, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-lip.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-col.png
|Comments=
}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=F1
|StorageCap=flash 1G
|Comm=ums(20M)
|Formats= http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp3.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wma.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-ogg.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-asf.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wav.png
|OggSupp=q0-q8?, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-lip.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-fm.png?
|Comments=
}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=X5
|StorageCap=HD 20G, 30G, 60G
|Comm=ums(480M)
|Formats= http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp3.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp2.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-ogg.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wma.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-asf.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wav.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-flac.png mpeg4, jpg, txt
|OggSupp=q0-q10, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-lio.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-fm.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-col.png
|Comments=Rockbox in alpha stage
}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=6
|StorageCap=HD 4G
|Comm=ums
|Formats= http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp3.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp2.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-ogg.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wma.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-asf.png? http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wav.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-flac.png
|OggSupp=q0-q10?, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-lio.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-col.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-otg.png
|Comments=
}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=M3
|StorageCap=HD 20G, 40G
|Comm=ums(480M)
|Formats= http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp3.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp2.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-ogg.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wma.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wav.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-flac.png
|OggSupp=q0-q10, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-lio.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-fm.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-col.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-rm.png
|Comments=
}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=M5
|StorageCap=HD 20G
|Comm=ums(480M)
|Formats= http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp3.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp2.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-ogg.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wma.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-asf.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wav.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-flac.png
|OggSupp=q0-q10, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-lio.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-col.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-rm.png
|Comments=
}}

{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=A2
|StorageCap=HD 20G, 30G
|Comm=ums(480M)
|Formats= http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp3.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mp2.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-ogg.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wma.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-asf.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-wav.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-flac.png jpg, png txt, bmp, wmv9, avi, xvid, divx
|OggSupp=q0-q10, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-lip.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-col.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-otg.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-spk.png
|Comments=
}}
{{PlayersTableFooter2}}
{{PlayersTableLegend2}}

What do you think? [[User:Hankwang|Hankwang]] 17:22, 24 April 2006 (PDT)
Updated example table with all current iAudio models
----
It's neater than mine, but the Features codes are a bit cryptic (the original intention of redesigning being that people should easily be able to find a player that meets their needs). I think we need someone who can design icons for it, and possibly a newer version of mediawiki which allows default arguments. Definite improvement though. (Sorry to be so long in responding, a bit busy recently) [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 12:51, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Funny about the G3 actually, the iAudio website definitely says up to Q8, but mine will play Q10 (one test though).
----
OK, I made a few icons. Didn't want to spend too much time on creating them and they do not yet cover all features that I thought of, but it looks nicer indeed, don't you agree? Problem: xiphwiki doesn't support [[Special:Upload|file uploading]], so I hotlinked them directly to a separate website. Not a good idea as a permanent solution. Who can enable/disable features on the wiki? [[User:Hankwang|Hankwang]] 15:08, 2 May 2006 (PDT)
----
I emailed the Vorbis mailing list responding to the original thread on this topic to see if Xiph are willing to upload files and possibly upgrade the Wiki (default arguments for templates in newer versions would be really useful for this). No response yet. I doubt they'll ever turn on uploading because of the possibility for abuse, but for this it would make sense for them to host the icon set as part of the site. I'll try the Xiph list instead if nothing happens. May be easier to get someone in a position of power on IRC though. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 06:00, 19 May 2006 (PDT)
-----
OK, let's see what will happens. Otherwise I could put this stuff on the HydrogenAudio wiki. If the icons can be hosted on the xiph server (not as uploads), we'll have to think of a reasonable list of other features that can be iconified:
Firmware update required; vorbis comment support; tag database; gapless; communication through Media transfer protocol (MTP), ethernet? Any others? [[User:Hankwang|Hankwang]] 08:57, 19 May 2006 (PDT)

2006-05-02T22:21:28Z

Hankwang: del spam

TheoraSoftwarePlayers

2006-05-02T22:19:29Z

Hankwang: rv spam

*[http://www.illiminable.com/ogg/ Directshow Filters for Ogg Vorbis, Speex, Theora and FLAC]
*[https://helixcommunity.org/projects/xiph/ Xiph Plugins for Real Player/Producer]
*[http://www.videolan.org/vlc/ VLC], a cross-platform media player and streaming server
*[http://xinehq.de/ xine]
*[http://www.mplayerhq.hu/design7/news.html MPlayer]
*[http://www.gnomefiles.org/app.php?soft_id=64 Totem] - can user either xine or [http://gstreamer.freedesktop.org/ Gstreamer] as backend.
*[https://player.helixcommunity.org/ Helix Player]

Talk:PortablePlayers

2006-05-02T22:08:07Z

Hankwang: /* New layout proposal */ added some icons.

There are many more portable players by TrekStor than the i.beat 500 supporting ogg vorbis.

Please add products to the main page.

I would like to know which Players can '''record''' in OGG?! -- [[User:217.186.150.213|217.186.150.213]] 17:03, 26 Dec 2004 (PST)

== Pretec Allegro may need firmware update ==

I recently purchased a Pretec Allegro, but was unable to play Oggs for three months, until the firmware update was made available on 14 or 15 March 2005. Now it works well! (So far, listening to -q3 Oggs). I'd hope that units purchased after this date already has the firmware update, but you never know. Installing the update is as simple as placing the .rom on the USB-storage-device media (eg flash disk), starting up the unit, and pressing the play button. -- Hugo van der Merwe
: How much battery runtime do you get playing Oggs compared with playing mp3? [[User:Phr|Phr]] 02:05, 27 Aug 2005 (PDT)

== Any player with SD-Cards ==

Every single ogg-capable portable player out there seems to come with built-in flash memory. Which is stupid, because I don't want to fire up my computer and plug in the player every time I get tired of the tracks on my player. Plus flash memory has a limited lifetime (write cycles) and so does your player with built-in memory. The same applies for built-in rechargable batteries.

Now when would you ever need to buy your second device without any moving parts if you could just change flash memory and batteries? Ok, that's the industrie's point of view but not mine. I want to go on vacation with music and batteries for one week of non-stop music - without a power source or computer nearby.

So, any hint to where I might find a portable audio player that can play back ogg vorbis files and uses SD flash cards (and preferably AAA-batteries) would be greatly appreciated.
* Me too! If the [http://enox.co.kr/2004/eng/product/product_830_01.asp Enox EMX-830] took SD cards it'd be perfect. --[[User:Rgm|rgm]] 14:41, 7 Nov 2005 (PST)

----

The Pretec Allegro is not the slickest player out there, it's LCD backlight seems to give off a high-pitched whine, which not everyone can hear (it kind-of screams in my ears though, so I put the backlight timer on 1 second so it doesn't scream too long). It is, however, the only one I now know of that can play Oggs, and uses removable media. If you want a nicely portable device, you have to use Pretec's "iDisk tiny" usb flash disk, the only thing that will fit inside. You can also, however, connect some USB SD-card reader with it's cable, then listen to Oggs off of SD. A little unwieldy, but, it works, and is the only thing *I* know of. (I stopped following developments in December though, when I bought it...)

== Samsung's Yepp Ogg Vorbis support ==

JoshuaRodman wrote regarding the yp-t7z:
:I received such a unit. It plays oggs encodd at -q 4, 5 and 6 without error that I have noticed. However it seems underdocumented. It plays the files in an order which is neither alpha sorted nor numeric sorted, and it does not support ogg tags. -- JoshuaRodman (March 28, 2005)
:I've investigated more. Some music encoded at even -q 5 will break up or cause difficulty. I suspect these pieces have bitrate spikes. As for the ordering, the YP-T7 plays files in 'readdir' order. That is it does not sort the files out of the filesystem at all. In practice, this means it will play the files in the order that you add them to the directory. If you are a windows user dragging and dropping the files onto the player, this problem will not affect you. A linux or possible Mac user may need to do minor scripting to alleviate this issue. --JoshuaRodman (April 13, 2005)
:I thought I came back and clarified this, but don't have hte energy to review the edit history. In any event, there are no problems with OGG playback on my YP-T7z at this time. All symptoms have evaporated with firmware updates or magic. [[User:JoshuaRodman|JoshuaRodman]] 01:27, 7 April 2006 (PDT)

Spaz added for the YP-T7Z:
:After using the newest firmware I have had no issues playing OGG files. Any lockup or playback issues I had experienced went away. --Spaz (Dec 23, 2005)

Ulrich added for the YP-MT6Z:
:I think my manual says the first 8 characters of a filename are considered for sorting. As my files have the "tracknumber" tag, I wrote some Perl script that prepends that number (two digits plus a space) to the track names when being copied onto the player. I'm not sure about decoding problems, but there may be some. I encoded my files at q6 or higher using "oggenc" from Linux. Tags for title and performer are displayed unless you follow the Vorbis specification to create one tag for each performer. However, be aware that default settings have tag display disabled!

:The chip inside seems to be a Sigmatel STMP3400M, natively specified for MP3 with addon codecs.

:It would be great of Samsung Europe would release firmware with release notes (the Korean site has newer firmware, but no English, really!). There's also some inoffical newer firmware around, but also without any release notes. Official firmware is 2.122 (on my player as delivered and on CD and website).

:Recently I decided to remove some Ogg files from the player and add a few new ones. Unfortunately this resulted in some directories (usually structured as <artist>/<album>/<track-number> <track-title>) being unplayable. There's just a message saying "No Entry". Interestingly this happens with directories that did play before removing some files. Newer firmware didn't change anything about that. I suspect that this is caused by either 1) special characters in the file names (I use UTF-8 encoding), 2) special characters in the Vorbis comment, 3) length of file names, 4) number of files in the file system, or 5) amount of free space (my player has just 90kB free now). One symptom is that in Settings->System->About there are fewer files counted than actually exist in the filesystem. And yes, I've checked the filesystem several times. I have contacted German support, and they replied they'll investigate, but they did not ask back about any details (and support doesn't allow to reply).

:With the new inofficial firmware 2.290 I had a few crashes: The player was playing a continuous tone, and the only way to stop it was to remove the battiery for a moment. However as the effect was not repeatable when playing the same file, I can believe that some mobile phone triggered that. The other thing is the fact that my player came without FM radio. The newer firmware has the radio item in firmware, but as soon as I select it, the player will hang until the battery is removed. OK, that's inofficial firmware...
--(Ulrich on 2006-02-02)

::Two questions: 1) are ogg tags not being displayed even when the Tag option is toggle to On in the settings menu? 2) how does it handle -q 4 and -q 6 — is it just -q 5, or is it -q 5 and higher/lower? — [[User:Saxifrage|Saxifrage]] 01:07, 14 Apr 2005 (PDT)

:::I have seen no evidence of vorbis tags being supported; they are not displayed. I have generally encoded at -q 5 as an attempt to stay inside the "supported" bitrate boundaries. I find that the bitrate and breakups are not directly correlated, but somewhat related. This is no surprise if the problem is CPU time exhaustion. I have not found any particular quality encoding to fail either reliably or often. In general, speeds above the stated maximum supported bitrates have seemed to work fine. No lockups of any kind have been encountered. Incidentally, over 90% of my ogg files have been processed by vorbisgain. --JoshuaRodman (July 5, 2005)

I just bought one of these and I'm baffled by its erratic Ogg support. Firmware version 1.541 seems to support tags just fine, though I haven't noticed the alpha-sorting issue (haven't looked). However, I find that it can't play all my Ogg files (freezes when it tries to load the file), and there's nothing systematic that I've found to account for this. It plays some files I encoded [[Jan 29]]-[[Jan 30]], [[2005]], but there are files that don't work before and after that date. The files that work so far were encoded with nominal bitrates of 128 and 192, while others that don't work were at 160. All encodings have used the same program (Grip under Linux). Ogg files that I've encoded with oggenc directly for testing purposes at 160 nominal bitrate work just fine. There's just something about most of my existing files.

I've emailed a support request to Samsung Canada, so I'll report what I find out then. Meanwhile I'm doing a bunch of rips with Grip to test different nominal bitrates. [[User:Saxifrage|Saxifrage]] 10:53, 12 Apr 2005 (PDT)

:Results from my experiments with different nominal bitrates are summarised in this table:
{| align=center border=1
|+YP-T6 Ogg Vorbis support
|-
!   !! Tags
| none || tag* || tag + replaygain || replaygain
|-
!Bitrate (nominal) ||   ||   ||   ||   ||  
|-
| 128
|   || works || works || works || ?
|-
| 160
|   || works || works || '''freezes''' || works
|-
| 192
|   || works || works || works || ?
|}
:<nowiki>* </nowiki>"tag" means just the regular complement of artist, album, title, year, and genre.
:"?" indicates that the case was not tested

:My conclusion is that the Samsung YP-T6 can't handle Ogg Vorbis files encoded at 160 nominal bitrate if [[Wikipedia:ReplayGain|ReplayGain]] tags are applied to the file. Note too that I tested a file without real RG tags, but with the normal tags plus tags with different names than the standard RG tags but with the same name-length and same length of arguments; this was to isolate whether it was a ReplayGain-specific bug or a general tag-handling bug. Thus, I suspect that the problem is a buffer overflow in tag code of the firmware. '''Note''' that I have only tested files encoded with nominal bitrates, not files encoded with oggenc's quality settings.
:The few files in my collection that have worked were encoded at different bitrates (either 128 or 192), but unfortunately the vast majority are 160, and I need ReplayGain to be able to listen to my collection on the PC without constantly changing the volume. As a workaround I may write a script to strip the ReplayGain tags as they're moved to my player, but this rather sucks. — [[User:Saxifrage|Saxifrage]] 12:36, 12 Apr 2005 (PDT)

=== Yepp YP-T7JZ/T7JX ===

Samsung appears to have model bumped the yp-t7 series with the yp-t7j series. The spec sheet does not mention OGG/Vorbis as a supported file format. This seems a real shame as the t7 worked well. Does anyone have anything more conclusive? [[User:JoshuaRodman|JoshuaRodman]] 08:26, 6 January 2006 (PST)

=== Yepp MT-6X ===

:I ([[User:Gav|Gav]]) own a Yepp MT-6X and I don't come to the same conclusions. I tried to remove the Gain tags and it didn't improve anything. Here are some tests I made :

{| align=center border=1
|+YP-MT6X Ogg Vorbis support
|-
! Encoder version || Filename || Nominal bitrate || Playback test
|-
|Xiphophorus libVorbis I 20000508 (1.0 beta 1 or beta 2) || 01 - In Tenebris.ogg || unset (160 kbps) || KO
|-
|Xiphophorus libVorbis I 20001031 (1.0 beta 3) || 01 - A Day Without Rain.ogg || 160 kbps || KO
|-
|Xiphophorus libVorbis I 20010225 (1.0 beta 4) || 01 - Sunday Bloody Sunday.ogg || 128 kbps || KO
|-
|Xiphophorus libVorbis I 20010615 (1.0 rc1) || 01 - Remede.ogg || 128 kbps || KO
|-
|Xiphophorus libVorbis I 20010813 (1.0 rc2) || 01 - Devil's Haircut.ogg || 192 kbps || OK
|-
|Xiphophorus libVorbis I 20011231 (1.0 rc3) || 01 - Encore Une Chance.ogg || 112 kbps || OK
|-
|Xiph.Org libVorbis I 20020717 (1.0) || 01 - Inferno (Unleash The Fire).ogg || 160 kbps || KO
|-
|Xiph.Org libVorbis I 20030909 (1.0.1) || 01 - You Will Be a Hot Dancer.ogg || 128 kbps || OK
|-
|}

Yes, a 1.0 file fails... I also tested a 8 second file encoded at q1,q2,...,q10 using 20020717 (1.0) and it worked for every quality ! So not every 1.0-encoded file fails. See [[YeppGavDetails]] for details about the files.

: OK. I've done extensive tests and I can confirm what Saxifrage suggested : there is indeed a buffer overflow in the tag handling ! When the framing bit of the tag header is at offset >= 0x18C, it fails. If it is at exactly 0x18C, it reboots or freezes. If it is at offset > 0x18C, it always freezes. This was tested with firmware 1.101 and vorbis encoder 1.0.

: The file encoded using libVorbis 1.0 in the table above has a too large tag and that's why it fails.

: In summary, the Yepp can only play Vorbis when it is encoded with libVorbis version >= 1.0rc2 AND when the framing bit of the tag header is at offset < 0x18C.

=== Yepp YP-T6 ===

I've got this model with 256MB of flash memory, and unlike above, I ran into problems when I tried to play very-low-bitrate files (< 64kbps, CD format). I encoded them using [http://www.geocities.jp/aoyoume/aotuv/index.html aoTuV-beta4] experiment version from aoyumi (which creates (or should create) perfectly standard and conforming files), using command-line oggenc under linux. The qualities I used for these problematic files are -q-1 (~45kbps) and -q-2 (~32kbps), and when the player tries to open the file it freezes, but for qualities from -q0 it works perfectly.

Apart from that, I've had no real problem before, using mostly -q6 files from RC3 and 1.0, without tags or with standard ones. Sometimes the sound is distorted a lot for a few tenths of seconds, it seems to be related to bitrate peaks (applauds, etc.).

Hope this will be useful, anyway thanks for the investigations on this player, I also realized the lack of information on this player's ogg support. [[User:Superdupont|Superdupont]] 16:49, 2 Aug 2005 (PDT)

Edit: firmware version: 1.543

The YP-T6 seems to be almost identical to the Trekstor i.Beat Cube.

The YP-T6s sold in the US sports an FM Radio with 16 saved settings and automatic station search. Recording from a radio program to MP3 is possible. At least the German version of the YP-T6 does not have an built-in tuner.

The German web site has moved it from from "MP3 players" to the [http://av.samsung.de/subtype_tva_audiop_mp3_archiv.asp Archived MP3 players] section, while the [http://www.samsung.com/Products/DigitalAudioPlayer/MP3Players/YP_T6ZXAA.asp US] and [http://www.samsung.com/uk/products/digitalaudioplayer/flashmemory/index.asp UK] site lists it as regular model. I don't know if this indicates that Samsung is about to stop production of the T6 or if there have been problems on the German market (like restrictive radio emission laws, see built-in tuner section above).

=== Yepp YP-53 ===

I'am not sure what's inside this player. May be it's a STMP3505. With firmware 1.200 it plays Ogg Vorbis, but not at very low bitrates(-q-1 and -q-2).[[User:nostromo|nostromo]] 4 Nov 2005.

Firmware 1.200 is a bit difficult to find, googling by file name (YP-53_V1.200.zip) gets a single relevant result: [http://bluetek.co.kr/service/guide/driver_view.asp?idx=110&tbl_name=download_kr&page=3&qtype=model&query= Korean page with a link to the updater]. If it disappears, contact me ([[User:inejge|inejge]]) via this site ('''E-mail this user''' on the linked page).

The new firmware is much nicer than the previous release (my player came with V1.024):
* It plays OGGs, starting with -q0.
* The main screen is better organized.
* Menus are cleaned up (and with more eye candy).
* Non-ASCII characters in tags are displayed properly (tested with OGG).

'''Note:''' if you are encoding OGGs at -q0, ''don't'' try to set the lower bitrate limit to 64 kb/s -- the player can choke on managed bitrate files. Nominal bitrate is all that counts.

--[[User:Inejge|Inejge]] 06:32, 12 Dec 2005 (PST)

=== Yepp YP-U1 ===
'''Firmware 2.242:''' Plays Vorbis OK with tag support. Tested with aoTuV beta 4.51 and Xiph.org Vorbis between -q2 and -q8 (mostly at -q5; manual claims support from -q0 to -q10), no lockups so far. Experienced unusual distortion at one point of a particular track (loud, percussive synthetic "thunderclap") at -q5, decreasing with increasing -q value; this appears to be caused by a spike in bitrate, solved by passing encoding options
--managed -b160 -M192
--[[User:Ettlz|Ettlz]] 07:35, 25 January 2006 (PST)

== UniBrain iZak ==

Apologies if this is the wrong place for this; I'm new to wikis.

The UniBrain iZak was added, then removed recently, with the comment that it doesn't claim to play Ogg Vorbis.

The FAQ is available here: [http://www.unibrain.com/support/iZak/iZak_FAQ.htm iZak FAQ] and Question/Answer 22 says:

'22. Can iZak™ support OGG audio files?

Yes, iZak™ fully supports OGG playback using the latest firmware.'

:I was the one that removed it. In their specs linked from the main page, I saw that they listed only MP3 and WMA support for music formats. Obviously they need to update their promotional material! I went ahead and added the iZak back in, making a point to mention that the most current version of the firmware now supports Ogg Vorbis and linking to their FAQ as evidence. [[User:Saxifrage|Saxifrage]] 02:36, 5 May 2005 (PDT)

:Splendid. I didn't want to just stick it back after it had been taken out.--[[User:Ipl|Ipl]] 05:14, 5 May 2005 (PDT)

== Entempo Spirit ==

This inexpensive player from Entempo had listed Ogg as a "Supported Audio Format", but the device will not index the Ogg files into it's menus -- let alone play the files. Tested with both the stock and most recent firmware, May 29, 2005. Vendor had been contacted and removed Ogg support claims from their website, but has not provided any resolution to customers which purchased the product expecting this support. The company's webpage has disappeared as of Feb 2006.

== Lexar LDP-800 dropped ==
It seems that Lexar have abondoned the LDP-800. The following was posted by a user on [http://www.dapreview.net/comment.php?comment.news.1055 dapreview.net]
" Unfortunately, lexar will not offer the LDP-800, but will focus instead
on its existing LDP Players that already offer appealing features and
benefits to meet a variety of consumer needs."
Shame.--[[User:Ipl|Ipl]] 06:15, 22 Jul 2005 (PDT)

There's more info on that dapreview thread that indicates some confusion within Lexar. Currently, it looks like the release is going to happen in early September.

Update 2005-11-11: after inquiries to Lexar's "new products" personnel, I received a telephone message that the LDP-800 will definitely "is not going to see the light of day." Ask me if you want details. I agree that it's a shame since this looked to be an outstanding product. --[[User:dfavro|dfavro]]

== Hong Kong Dream-tech Electronic DT-202, works? please confirm ==
http://hkdream-tech.com
An ebay seller says that it can reproduce OGG. This is unconfirmed. In the manufacturer web it says: MP3, WMA, WAV, DMV and etc.

Some webpage also says that it works on Windows, Mac and Linux. Also unconfirmed.
Further investigation required.

== Trekstor i.Beat Cube ==
This player seems to be very similar to the Samsung Yepp YP-T6, possibly with the [[#Yepp_MT-6X|same problems]] regarding Ogg playback. Trekstor has moved [http://www.trekstor.de/en/produkte/mp3-player/ibeat-cube.html info about this player] from "MP3-Player" to the "Archive" section which propably means that it is not produced anymore.

== The Muzio jm300 / jm-300 does NOT play ogg ==

NB this is the jm-300 (not 100 or 200)

I bought this a month ago. I've been unable to play ogg files on
it. It simply shows these as 'etc' files and skips over them.

Pitty really, this was the main reason I chose this player.

I've seen lots of discussion about the muzio playing oggs, is there
anybody there who owns a jm300 and is actually playing oggs ? I can't
help think I've juts missed something basic.

== Layout of the PortablePlayers list ==

Wouldn't this list be easier to read if there was a seperate heading for each product, sorted by manufacturer? --[[User:Blenda|Blenda]] 09:13, 11 January 2006 (PST)

: There'd be a ''lot'' of entries then, I like the idea of a table format as suggested by G Markham on the Vorbis list recently (cut and pasted below). Although I think providing links to suppliers for each device and trying to maintain up-to-date availability is going too far.
: [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 09:19, 24 February 2006 (PST)

::Make it a table - or rather, four tables, for each combination of flash/hard disk and current/historical, with historical data below current. Split it up by model, not just by manufacturer - one manufacturer can have many different models with widely differing feature sets. Provide a link to the manufacturer's product page for each model, and either a table-based or a freeform list of commonly-sought features (microphone, radio, capacity, other formats). Provide details of which countries a player can be purchased in and, if it's not commonly available, details of how to find it in major markets (US, Europe).

::I want to be able to come to the page (as I tried to recently) and say "I need a flash-based player with a built-in USB connector and a mic, available in Europe", and find which models I should be googling for without difficulty.
::Gervase Markham on vorbis mailing list, inserted by [[User:Imalone|Imalone]]

: Here's a quick attempt I put together:

{{PlayersTableHeader|ManufacturerLink=[http://www.iaudio.com iAudio]}}
{{PlayersTableBody|Model=G3|MemType=Flash (builtin)
|MemSize=256MB, 512MB, 1GB
|UMS=Yes
|NoUpd=Yes
|Power=AA
|LineIn=Yes
|Mic=Yes
|Radio=Yes
|Formats= MP3, MP2, Ogg, WMA, ASF and WAV
|Comments= Very white, available from online retailers in UK
}}
{{PlayersTableBody|Model=Pianist
|MemType=Savant
|MemSize=Indefinite
|UMS=No
|NoUpd=Yes
|Power=n/a
|LineIn=NA
|Mic=No
|Radio=No
|Formats=Manuscript
|Comments=No, they don't really make this.
}}
{{PlayersTableFooter}}

: Obviously templates would be of some use here—someone more wiki-wise than me want to suggest something? Also those check boxes, I had a quick look but haven't got a way to do them that looks good (again, if you could come up with some convoluted solution, then it could be templated for convenience). Perhaps little icons might be easier for a few things like batteries, capacity, memory type where there tends to be a limited number of common choices.
: [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 09:56, 24 February 2006 (PST)

: On reflection, column 5 should be 'without firmware update' (or a less confusing text), because then support without firmware update would be green and green is good (or at least consistent). Left red above so you can see the contrast until someone does a less fully featured player. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 17:23, 24 February 2006 (PST)

: Changed this to an example template based table. XiphWiki is running on a version of mediawiki that doesn't support defaults so all fields need to be specified (even if empty). There is an 'NA' entry provided alongside 'Yes' and 'No' for the binary fields. All are case sensitive. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 08:25, 23 March 2006 (PST)

==New layout proposal==
I think the table gets too wide this way (I changed a bit to make it more narrow). It hardly fits on my 1400x1050 pixel screen and adding any other features that might be relevant is cumbersome. Too bad you can't put the header data vertically. I propose the following layout instead:
{{PlayersTableHeader2|ManufacturerLink=[http://www.iaudio.com iAudio]}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=G3
|StorageCap=flash 256M, 512M, 1G
|Comm=ums(20M)
|Formats=mp3, mp2, ogg, wma, asf, wav
|OggSupp=q0-q8, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-aa.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-fm.png
|Comments=
}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=5
|StorageCap=flash 256M, 512M, 1G
|Comm=ums(20M)
|Formats=mp3, mp2, ogg, wma, asf, wav
|OggSupp=q0-q8, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-aaa.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-fm.png
|Comments=
}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=U2
|StorageCap=flash 256M, 512M, 1G
|Comm=ums(20M)
|Formats=mp3, mp2, ogg, wma, asf, wav
|OggSupp=q0-q8, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-lio.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-fm.png
|Comments=
}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=G2
|StorageCap=flash 1G
|Comm=ums(6M)
|Formats=mp3, mp2, ogg, wma, asf, wav
|OggSupp=q0-q8, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-aa.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png?
|Comments=
}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=U3
|StorageCap=flash 512M, 1G, 2G
|Comm=ums(35M)
|Formats=mp3, mp2, ogg, wma, flac, wav, mpeg4, jpg, txt
|OggSupp=q0-q10, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-lip.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png col
|Comments=
}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=F1
|StorageCap=flash 1G
|Comm=ums(20M)
|Formats=mp3, wma, ogg, asf, wav
|OggSupp=q0-q8?, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-lip.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-fm.png?
|Comments=
}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=X5
|StorageCap=HD 20G, 30G, 60G
|Comm=ums(480M)
|Formats=mp3, mp2, ogg, wma, asf, wav, flac, mpeg4, jpg, txt
|OggSupp=q0-q10, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-lio.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-fm.png col
|Comments=Rockbox in alpha stage
}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=6
|StorageCap=HD 4G
|Comm=ums
|Formats=mp3, mp2?, ogg, wma, asf?, wav, flac
|OggSupp=q0-q10?, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-lio.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png col, http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-otg.png
|Comments=
}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=M3
|StorageCap=HD 20G, 40G
|Comm=ums(480M)
|Formats=mp3, mp2, ogg, wma, wav, flac
|OggSupp=q0-q10, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-lio.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-fm.png col, rm
|Comments=
}}
{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=M5
|StorageCap=HD 20G
|Comm=ums(480M)
|Formats=mp3, mp2, ogg, wma, asf, wav, flac
|OggSupp=q0-q10, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-lio.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png col, rm
|Comments=
}}

{{PlayersTableBody2|Model=A2
|StorageCap=HD 20G, 30G
|Comm=ums(480M)
|Formats=mp3, mp2, ogg, wma, asf, wav, flac, jpg, png txt, bmp, wmv9, avi, xvid, divx
|OggSupp=q0-q10, vc
|Features=http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-batt-lip.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-linein.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-mic.png col, http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-otg.png http://www.lagom.nl/xiph/ico-spk.png
|Comments=
}}
{{PlayersTableFooter2}}
{{PlayersTableLegend2}}

What do you think? [[User:Hankwang|Hankwang]] 17:22, 24 April 2006 (PDT)
Updated example table with all current iAudio models
----
It's neater than mine, but the Features codes are a bit cryptic (the original intention of redesigning being that people should easily be able to find a player that meets their needs). I think we need someone who can design icons for it, and possibly a newer version of mediawiki which allows default arguments. Definite improvement though. (Sorry to be so long in responding, a bit busy recently) [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 12:51, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Funny about the G3 actually, the iAudio website definitely says up to Q8, but mine will play Q10 (one test though).
----
OK, I made a few icons. Didn't want to spend too much time on creating them and they do not yet cover all features that I thought of, but it looks nicer indeed, don't you agree? Problem: xiphwiki doesn't support [[Special:Upload|file uploading]], so I hotlinked them directly to a separate website. Not a good idea as a permanent solution. Who can enable/disable features on the wiki? 15:08, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

Vorbis Software Encoders

2006-05-01T09:31:23Z

Hankwang: rv spam

The following are software programs that can convert audio to Ogg [[Vorbis]].

== Mac OS X ==
* [http://sbooth.org/Max/ Max] – requires Mac OS X 10.4 (Tiger); features transcoding from various formats as well
* [http://www.nouturn.com/oggdrop/ Ogg Drop]

Talk:Skeleton

2006-05-01T09:30:45Z

Hankwang: rm spam by 1146450550

MonthlyMeeting200512

2006-05-01T09:29:50Z

Hankwang: rv spam by 1146450550

== Agenda ==

* Address wiki spam ([[:Category:Spambots|Spambot]]s are now the most active "contributors")
** Use norefer on links to make it less attractive? (default in [[Special:Version|newer]] MediaWiki)
** More conter-measures? (e.g. delete accounts or auto-revert changes by identified spambots)
** Or why not merely install a [[Wikipedia:CAPTCHA|CAPTCHA]] hack for MediaWiki (the software for this wiki)?

* [[OggPCM_Draft1]], [[OggPCM_Draft2]] the whole process
** The whole debate has exposed the fact that there is no decision making authority at the moment
*** Some people have suggested creating a "steering committee" below the current board
** Need a process to "approve" Xiph.Org codecs/standards
** Some decision has to be made (in the shorter term) as to what version of OggPCM to adopt.
** Should we define membership to Xiph.org? -- e.g. am I (jmspeex) a member?

* The new [http://speex.org speex.org] site is ready, but someone (with permissions) needs to "install" it instead of the old one.

* [[Vorbis]] stills need more support on portable players. Shouldn't a team of Public Relations cover this issue by contacting as many player producer companies as possible?

* Annodex update on sw development and the [http://www.annodex.org/wiki/Main_Page Annodex Foundation]

* Any news on [http://trac.xiph.org/cgi-bin/trac.cgi/ticket/736 incorrect channel order in oggenc/oggdec]? Updated audio.c and audio.h files from John Edwards are in oggenc2.8 ([http://www.rarewares.org/files/ogg/oggenc2.8srcs.zip source]). Also, what about merging the full oggenc2.8 and oggdec 1.9.2 ([http://www.rarewares.org/files/ogg/oggdecV1.9.2src.zip source]) in the standard xiph.org versions, so also we linux users can use these new advanced features?

* Suggest supporting OggSkeleton by default in the core Xiph tools that generate concurrently multiplexed streams:Theora's encoder_example, ffmpeg2theora, the elusive OggFile, etc. (added by derf).

Vorbis Encoders

2006-05-01T09:28:41Z

Hankwang: rv spam by 1146450550

== Vorbis-OptSort ==
[http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dungeon/6809/vorbis-optsort-en.html Vorbis-OptSort] improves source code of the Vorbis codec library (libvorbis-1.0) to accelerate encoding time about 10% (not apply clean on 1.1.2).

== AoTuV ==
[http://www.geocities.jp/aoyoume/aotuv/ AoTuV encoders] are optimized encoders for higher quality.
* AoTuV beta2 was adopted as a part of Vorbis 1.1 of Xiph.Org.
* AoTuV beta4 improved quality at all bitrates (versus xiph.org 1.1.2) and can also go down to 32 Kb/s (q-2). Note that this patch also include the [http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dungeon/6809/vorbis-optsort-en.html Vorbis-OptSort] patch.
* The latest release is AoTuV beta 4.51, which improves quality at q<3 (versus AoTuV beta4).
* The latest [http://www.geocities.jp/aoyoume/aotuv/test.html test release] is aoTuV pre-beta5 [20060321].
Quality test of AoTuV beta4 vs. libvorbis 1.1.1:
* [http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=35438 80Kbps comparison of many audio codec and libvorbis 1.1.1 vs. AoTuV beta4]
** libvorbis 1.1.1 ABR vs libvorbis 1.1.1 VBR vs AoTuV beta4 VBR summary:
:: http://audiotests.free.fr/tests/2005.07/80/80TEST_PLOTS_04.png

" on group1, all encoders are tied (although aoTuV is better than 1.1.1
with 90% confidence). It’s a disappointment for me, because I’ve seriously
expected from aoTuV to reduce the level of coarseness/fatness on this specific
musical genre. However, slight improvements were often perceptible – it’s
better than nothing. With some samples, a slight regression was also perceptible:
additional distortion or apparently restrictive lowpass (noticed with harpsichord).
Interesting to note that ABR doesn’t perform badly, except on critical samples
(bitrate stayed at ~85 kbps when VBR encodings reached 160!); ABR also sounded a
bit better with some samples (tonal one). Good point to ABR (just note that encoding
speed is dramatically slow compared to VBR).
on group 2, differences are much more defined. ABR appeared as clearly worse than
VBR and aoTuV beta 4 outdid 1.1.1 on VBR mode. Obviously, the changes Aoyumi made on
vorbis are much more effective on various music.
on average, aoTuV beta 4 was better than 1.1.1 (not a surprise I would say)."

"Vorbis (aoTuV beta 4, VBR –q 0,9): this is by far the most
enjoying thing I’ve heard at this bitrate. I was highly surprised
by results I’ve got with the 150 classical samples; I was literally
astonished by the final score obtained with the 35 remaining samples!
Vorbis is obviously an amazing tool at this bitrate." guruboolez

* [http://forum.hardware.fr/hardwarefr/VideoSon/MP3-WMA-AAC-OGG-qualite-kbps-evaluation-sujet-84950-1.htm 96Kbps comparison of many audio codec and libvorbis 1.1.1 vs. AoTuV beta4 (french)]
** [http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.hardware.fr%2Fhardwarefr%2FVideoSon%2FMP3-WMA-AAC-OGG-qualite-kbps-evaluation-sujet-84950-1.htm&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=it&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools Google traduction]
** libvorbis 1.1.1 vs AoTuV beta4 summary:
:: http://audiotests.free.fr/tests/2005.07/96/96TEST_PLOTS_04.png
* [http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=36465 180Kbps comparison of many audio codec on classical music]
: Comment on AoTuV beta 4:
"Vorbis: Vorbis is now –thanks to Aoyumi– an excellent audio format for 180
kbps encodings (and classical music). It has apparently no flaws (lowest note
was 3.5) but only minor problems audible from time to time: additional noise,
fatness, or softened details. One third of the tested samples are transparent
to my ears with aoTuV encodings. My own limits are close to be reached."
guruboolez

"Vorbis: Vorbis is now impressive. Last year constant noise boost or coarseness
spoiled the performance of this format. I was surprised to hear those problems
on –q6,00 setting supposed to be free of them due to lossless coupling. Aoyumi has
apparently identifies precisely the cause of this problem and he worked to solve it.
Not entirely though: some remaining trails are still audible with few samples but
the intensity is now really frail (at least on the tested samples). Other artifacts
are also corrected: micro-attacks on Orion_II (sample 09) are now much less dusty
(aoTuV performed even better than any other tested format at this bitrate!). Performance
are remarkable and the slightly gain in bitrate consumption is the icing on the cake.
Just a question: Does aoTuV mean Tuned for Victory? Or Tuned by Visitors? From what
planet is Aoyumi coming from? By the way, I wouldn’t say anymore than Vorbis is not
mature enough. At least not for classical, which appeared to be a weak point for this format"
guruboolez

== Optimized Ogg Vorbis Encoders ==
These encoders are highly optimized encoders developed by the Ogg Vorbis Acceleration Project that are much faster than the standard builds with negligible to no effects on audio quality.
* [http://homepage3.nifty.com/blacksword/index.htm Home page (Japan)]
* [http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fhomepage3.nifty.com%2Fblacksword%2Findex.htm&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=it&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools Home Page (google traduction)]
* [http://homepage3.nifty.com/blacksword/index_e.htm Home Page (English, not up to date)]

2006-04-25T00:07:30Z

Hankwang:

:{| border="1" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" style="width:100%;"
|+ style="text-align: left;" | '''{{{ManufacturerLink}}}'''
! width="10%" valign="top" | Model
! width="15%" valign="top"| Storage & cap.
! width="10%" valign="top"| Comm.
! width="20%" valign="top"| Formats
! width="20%" valign="top"| Features
! valign="top"| Comments
|-

2006-04-24T23:50:48Z

Hankwang:

Template:PlayersTableLegend2

2006-04-24T23:44:35Z

Hankwang:

Explanation:
* '''Comm.''': communication: ''UMS''=USB mass storage protocol
* '''Features''':
:''Lib''=lithium ion accu, built-in; ''AA''=AA battery; ''AAA''=AAA battery
:''LI''=line in; ''mic''=microphone; ''fm''=FM radio;
:''db''=ID3 database; ''gl''=gapless playback;
:''vc''=supports basic vorbis comment fields; ''vcx''=supports arbitrary vorbis comment fields

Template:PlayersTableFooter2

2006-04-24T23:36:50Z

Hankwang:

Template:PlayersTableBody2

2006-04-24T23:35:51Z

Hankwang:

Template:PlayersTableHeader2

2006-04-24T23:29:12Z

Hankwang: New template

Template:PlayersTableNA

2006-04-24T23:25:00Z

Hankwang:

style="color:#888888;" | ?

Template:PlayersTableNA

2006-04-24T23:24:26Z

Hankwang: