Talk:Vorbis Hardware: Difference between revisions

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Follow the link above to get a less outdate cache.
Follow the link above to get a less outdate cache.
----
If I want something very portable and robust (for sport), then solid state storage is the way to go, right? Some flash based player?
----
Hi, anyone else thinks the [[VorbisHardware]] page could be splitted into 4...6 sub pages in order to structure the growing content?


What about
---
* portable hardware players
* static hardware players
* third party software in hardware
* Projects
* Embedded
 
?? Comments, please!
----


Some stats to write down in here:
Some stats to write down in here:
Line 22: Line 10:
--[[User:Bodo|Bodo]] 14:49, 29 Sep 2004 (PDT)
--[[User:Bodo|Bodo]] 14:49, 29 Sep 2004 (PDT)


----
== product description scheme ==
 
Could we also agree on a scheme how and what information about products is posted ? Current scheme is mostly ok, but there are some crappy entries. I'd keep company name first, linked to international company site -- it's confusing if it is used to directly link to the product in question.


Anyone know anything about Frontierlabs and the NEX ia? I have emailed their techsupport numerous times, to try and find out how they are progressing with their Ogg support (if at all), but have never received a reply...
Then follow the unlinked names of the products. In the text itself the product names should be linked to their respective sites. Also a short discription of other features would be nice, not just 'supports vorbis'. Then about third party links: only one review per product should be linked, extra photo links and other bullcrap can be skipped. Maybe some firmware links if necessary.  
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/601.htm 脱硫剂]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/602.htm 脱氢硫]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/603.htm 脱脂清洗剂]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/604.htm 脱脂脱胶骨粉]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/605.htm 万霉灵]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/605.htm 万能胶]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/607.htm 微电脑防盗报警器]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/608.htm 微结晶石蜡]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/609.htm 微晶蜡]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/610.htm 微晶纤维素]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/611.htm 微乳剂]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/612.htm 维生素]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/613.htm 维生素C磷酸酯]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/614.htm 维生素烟酰胺]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/615.htm 维酮]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/616.htm 卫生消毒液]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/617.htm 无毒稳定剂]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/618.htm 无缝无焊储罐]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/619.htm 无机氟化盐]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/620.htm 无机磷酸盐]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/621.htm 无机凝胶]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/622.htm 无机溶剂]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/623.htm 无卤阻燃剂]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/624.htm 无水醋酸钠]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/625.htm 无水氟化钾]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/626.htm 无水氟化氢]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/627.htm 无水磷酸二氢钠]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/628.htm 无水磷酸氢二钠]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/629.htm 无水六氟磷酸锂]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/630.htm 无水氯化钙]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/631.htm 无水柠檬酸钠]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/632.htm 无水三氯化铝]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/633.htm 无水液氨]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/634.htm 无水乙醇]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/635.htm 无水异丙醇]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/636.htm 无味煤油]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/637.htm 五氟一氯乙烷]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/638.htm 五甲基二乙烯三胺]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/639.htm 五甲基哌啶醇]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/640.htm 五硫化二磷]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/641.htm 戊二腈]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/642.htm 戊二醛]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/643.htm 戊腈]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/644.htm 戊唑醇]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/645.htm 烯丙基缩水甘油醚]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/646.htm 烯烃类磺酸盐]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/647.htm 稀释剂]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/648.htm 稀土萃取剂]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/649.htm 稀土顺丁橡胶]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/650.htm 稀土稳定剂]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/651.htm 稀硝酸]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/652.htm 锡酸钠]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/653.htm 洗板水]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/654.htm 洗模水]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/655.htm 洗油]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/656.htm 系列聚酰胺树脂]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/657.htm 酰氯]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/658.htm 显色蓝色盐]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/659.htm 香叶基丙酮]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/660.htm 橡胶防老剂]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/661.htm 橡胶类涂料]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/662.htm 橡胶硫化促进剂]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/663.htm 橡胶助剂]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/664.htm 橡胶专用脂肪酸]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/665.htm 消泡剂]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/666.htm 消烟阻燃剂]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/667.htm 硝苯地平]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/668.htm 硝化]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/669.htm 硝化棉]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/670.htm 硝基]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/671.htm 硝基苯]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/672.htm 硝基苯胺]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/673.htm 硝基苯酚]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/674.htm 硝基苯甲酸]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/675.htm 硝基苯胂酸]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/676.htm 硝基胍]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/677.htm 硝基甲苯邻磺酸]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/678.htm 硝基甲烷]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/679.htm 硝基氯苯]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/680.htm 硝基氯化苯]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/681.htm 硝基咪唑]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/682.htm 硝基漆]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/683.htm 硝酸]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/684.htm 硝酸銨]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/685.htm 硝酸钡]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/686.htm 硝酸钙]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/687.htm 硝酸胍]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/688.htm 硝酸钾]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/689.htm 硝酸铝]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/690.htm 硝酸镁]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/691.htm 硝酸咪康唑]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/692.htm 硝酸钠]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/693.htm 硝酸稀土]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/694.htm 硝酸异丙酯]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/695.htm 硝酸益康唑]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/696.htm 小球硅胶]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/697.htm 鞋模胶]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/698.htm 心安得]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/699.htm 辛二胺]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/700.htm 辛酸亚锡]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/701.htm 辛酰氯]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/702.htm 锌粒]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/703.htm 锌渣锌灰]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/704.htm 新戊二醇]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/705.htm 新型活性剂驱油剂]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/706.htm 猩红酸]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/707.htm 熊果苷]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/708.htm 熊果苷单酯]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/709.htm 溴苯]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/710.htm 溴丙烷]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/711.htm 溴代环戊烷]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/712.htm 溴代金刚烷]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/713.htm 溴代叔丁烷]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/714.htm 溴代羧酸酯]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/715.htm 溴代烃]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/716.htm 溴代烷烃]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/717.htm 溴代异丙烷]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/718.htm 溴代异丁烷]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/719.htm 溴代毓]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/720.htm 溴代正丙烷]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/721.htm 溴丁烷]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/722.htm 溴化氨]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/723.htm 溴化铵]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/724.htm 溴化丁基胶]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/725.htm 溴化钙]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/726.htm 溴化钾]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/727.htm 溴化锂]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/728.htm 溴化镁]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/729.htm 溴化锰]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/730.htm 溴化钠]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/731.htm 溴化锌]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/732.htm 溴甲基萘]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/733.htm 溴类阻燃剂]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/734.htm 溴素]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/735.htm 溴酸钠]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/736.htm 溴西烷]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/737.htm 溴硝醇]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/738.htm 溴盐及溴酸盐]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/739.htm 溴乙烷]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/740.htm 溴乙酰溴]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/741.htm 絮凝剂]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/742.htm 蓄电池酸]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/743.htm 悬浮剂]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/744.htm 循环系统油]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/745.htm 压敏胶]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/746.htm 亚氨基二苄]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/747.htm 亚氨基二乙酸]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/748.htm 亚氨基二乙酸二钠盐]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/749.htm 亚氨基二乙酸二乙酯]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/750.htm 亚氨基芪甲酰]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/751.htm 亚白刚玉]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/752.htm 亚甲基双丙烯酰胺]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/753.htm 亚磷酸]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/754.htm 亚磷酸二甲酯]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/755.htm 亚磷酸二乙酯]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/756.htm 亚磷酸二正丁酯]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/757.htm 亚磷酸三苯酯]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/758.htm 亚磷酸一苯二异辛酯]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/759.htm 亚磷酸酯]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/760.htm 亚硫酸钠]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/761.htm 亚硫酸氢铵]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/762.htm 亚硫酸氢钠]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/763.htm 亚氯酸钠]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/764.htm 亚麻酸]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/765.htm 亚么尼亚胶浆]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/766.htm 亚铁氰化钾]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/767.htm 亚硝基铁氢化钾]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/768.htm 亚硝基铁氢化钠]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/769.htm 亚硝基愈创木酚]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/770.htm 亚硝酸钙]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/771.htm 亚硝酸钠]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/772.htm 烟酰胺]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/773.htm 岩石水胶炸药]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/774.htm 岩藻聚糖硫酸脂]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/775.htm 盐酸]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/776.htm 盐酸安非他酮]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/777.htm 盐酸苄丝肼]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/778.htm 盐酸胍]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/779.htm 盐酸环胞苷]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/780.htm 盐酸洛美沙星]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/781.htm 盐酸羟胺]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/782.htm 盐酸羟亚胺]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/783.htm 盐酸舍曲林]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/784.htm 盐酸万拉法新]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/785.htm 盐酸西替利嗪]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/786.htm 颜料]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/787.htm 颜料糊]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/788.htm 颜料中间体]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/789.htm 阳离子染料]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/790.htm 杨酸钠]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/791.htm 氧化淀粉]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/792.htm 氧化锆]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/793.htm 氧化铬绿]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/794.htm 氧化合成氢氰酸]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/795.htm 氧化镧]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/796.htm 氧化铝粉]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/797.htm 氧化镁]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/798.htm 氧化镍]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/799.htm 氧化铁]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/800.htm 氧化銅]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/801.htm 氧化鋅]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/802.htm 氧氯化锆]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/803.htm 氧杂环戊烷]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/804.htm 药用级醋酸钠]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/805.htm 药用水杨酸]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/806.htm 椰油脂肪酸]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/807.htm 椰子油基酰]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/808.htm 椰子油甲酯]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/809.htm 冶金焦]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/800.htm 冶金铸焦]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/811.htm 冶炼氧化锌]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/812.htm 叶酸]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/813.htm 液氨]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/814.htm 液晶化学品]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/815.htm 液氯]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/816.htm 液萘]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/817.htm 液体丙烯酰胺]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/818.htm 液体二氧化硫]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/819.htm 液体氦]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/820.htm 液体混合氯化稀土]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/821.htm 液体硫酸羟胺]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/822.htm 液体氰化钠]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/823.htm 液体三氧化硫]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/824.htm 液体无水氨]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/825.htm 液体盐酸胍]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/826.htm 液体油墨凝胶剂]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/827.htm 液状石蜡]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/828.htm 一氟三氯甲烷]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/829.htm 一甲基肼]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/830.htm 一氯化硫]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/831.htm 一氯频呐酮]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/832.htm 一氯乙酸]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/833.htm 一氧化碳]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/834.htm 一正丙胺]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/835.htm 衣车润滑油]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/836.htm 衣康酸]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/837.htm 医药原料]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/838.htm 医药原料药]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/839.htm 医药中间体]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/840.htm 医用胶囊]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/841.htm 移印矽胶]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/842.htm 乙胺]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/843.htm 乙醇钠乙醇溶液]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/844.htm 乙二氨四醋酸]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/845.htm 乙二胺]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/846.htm 乙二胺四乙酸]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/847.htm 乙二胺四乙酸二钠]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/848.htm 乙二醇]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/849.htm 乙二醇醋酸酯]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/850.htm 乙二醇单正丙醚]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/851.htm 乙二醇丁醚]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/852.htm 乙二醇二甲醚]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/853.htm 乙二醇二甲酸酯]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/854.htm 乙二醛]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/855.htm 乙二酸锶]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/856.htm 乙基]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/857.htm 乙基胺]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/858.htm 乙基苯]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/859.htm 乙基苯胺]
[http://www.shop263.com/i-1/860.htm 乙基丁基甲酮]
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Ingmar (updatemeister)


Forgot: entries should be sorted alphabetically.


== Other comments ==


Anyone know anything about Frontierlabs and the NEX ia? I have emailed their techsupport numerous times, to try and find out how they are progressing with their Ogg support (if at all), but have never received a reply...
:They used to say they were working on it (for the Nex II) but they stopped answering.  That was a couple years ago.  I don't think they'll ever support Ogg on the Nexia.  Sorry.  It's a nice player in other regards, though behind the times in terms of hardware performance.  It gets about 10 hours of playtime (mp3) on two AA cells where other players get more time than that on one AAA cell.


== Vorbis encoder location ==


I added a link to VLSI Solution's VS1053, which is capable of both encoding and decoding Ogg Vorbis with a 16-bit DSP. As far as I know this is a somewhat unique feature and I thought of bumping the reference up.


However, as I am affiliated with the company, I feel a conflict of interests, so I will not do that. But just in case some of you more independent people think hardware Ogg Vorbis encoders are interesting enough, I wanted to raise a discussion whether it would be ok to move the VS1053 to a more visible position on this page, e.g. creating subheadings like "Ogg Vorbis Encoders" / "Ogg Vorbis Decoders" or similar. Again, I will not do that personally.


(I have no idea whether raising this question in itself is a violation of something. I don't think so, but if I'm wrong, please just delete this discussion point.)


- RealLeo


   
:Raising the question is not a violation of anything. While the feature seems pretty interestiing, and we'd like to know what other HW encoders are there, I do not think a single product justifies making a whole section.  For now, at least.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 10:42, 13 September 2007 (PDT)


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:I have now moved VLSI Solution's Ogg Vorbis chips to the top of the list. My rationale is that the VS1053 is the only Ogg Vorbis encoder of the whole group, so I felt this to be OK now that the encoder has been officially released. However, I _am_ still affiliated with the company (read: I wrote the encoder and I am very proud of it), so if you think my reasoning really stinks, feel free to undo my changes. [[User:RealLeo|RealLeo]] 01:51, 4 December 2007 (PST)
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Latest revision as of 11:25, 2 October 2008

http://web.archive.org/web/20040208141117/http://wiki.xiph.org/VorbisHardware/editform

Follow the link above to get a less outdate cache.

---

Some stats to write down in here: The new VorbisHardware Wiki has been up since 16:29, 27 Aug 2004. Now, one month later this site had more than 4600 visits (grabbed from counter on the bottom). The page is 8.5 screen units to scroll on my 1024px high monitor. Time to reconsider a split of contents as mentioned above? --Bodo 14:49, 29 Sep 2004 (PDT)

product description scheme

Could we also agree on a scheme how and what information about products is posted ? Current scheme is mostly ok, but there are some crappy entries. I'd keep company name first, linked to international company site -- it's confusing if it is used to directly link to the product in question.

Then follow the unlinked names of the products. In the text itself the product names should be linked to their respective sites. Also a short discription of other features would be nice, not just 'supports vorbis'. Then about third party links: only one review per product should be linked, extra photo links and other bullcrap can be skipped. Maybe some firmware links if necessary.

Ingmar (updatemeister)

Forgot: entries should be sorted alphabetically.

Other comments

Anyone know anything about Frontierlabs and the NEX ia? I have emailed their techsupport numerous times, to try and find out how they are progressing with their Ogg support (if at all), but have never received a reply...

They used to say they were working on it (for the Nex II) but they stopped answering. That was a couple years ago. I don't think they'll ever support Ogg on the Nexia. Sorry. It's a nice player in other regards, though behind the times in terms of hardware performance. It gets about 10 hours of playtime (mp3) on two AA cells where other players get more time than that on one AAA cell.

Vorbis encoder location

I added a link to VLSI Solution's VS1053, which is capable of both encoding and decoding Ogg Vorbis with a 16-bit DSP. As far as I know this is a somewhat unique feature and I thought of bumping the reference up.

However, as I am affiliated with the company, I feel a conflict of interests, so I will not do that. But just in case some of you more independent people think hardware Ogg Vorbis encoders are interesting enough, I wanted to raise a discussion whether it would be ok to move the VS1053 to a more visible position on this page, e.g. creating subheadings like "Ogg Vorbis Encoders" / "Ogg Vorbis Decoders" or similar. Again, I will not do that personally.

(I have no idea whether raising this question in itself is a violation of something. I don't think so, but if I'm wrong, please just delete this discussion point.)

- RealLeo

Raising the question is not a violation of anything. While the feature seems pretty interestiing, and we'd like to know what other HW encoders are there, I do not think a single product justifies making a whole section. For now, at least.--Ivo 10:42, 13 September 2007 (PDT)
I have now moved VLSI Solution's Ogg Vorbis chips to the top of the list. My rationale is that the VS1053 is the only Ogg Vorbis encoder of the whole group, so I felt this to be OK now that the encoder has been officially released. However, I _am_ still affiliated with the company (read: I wrote the encoder and I am very proud of it), so if you think my reasoning really stinks, feel free to undo my changes. RealLeo 01:51, 4 December 2007 (PST)