https://wiki.xiph.org/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=Xpete&feedformat=atomXiphWiki - User contributions [en]2024-03-19T01:34:40ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.40.1https://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:TheoraTodo&diff=9051Talk:TheoraTodo2008-05-20T20:43:56Z<p>Xpete: Lossless compression for Theora II ?</p>
<hr />
<div>== FFMPEG2THEORA ==<br />
<br />
"j^" wrote:<br />
<br />
* > is possible: ffmpeg2theora -f image2 frame%06d.ppm -o output.ogg)<br />
* > remove ffmpeg2theora section since the bugs / enhancements listed are in svn<br />
* > FFPMEG2THEORA - bug is fixed in svn, also trac.xiph.org would be a better place for bug reports<br />
<br />
Thanks. Is it supposed to work (undocumented) in 0.19 or will it be in 0.20 ?<br />
<br />
Doesn't work for me with PNG in 0.19 ... "frame%06d.ppm" is one file ? And what the "%" is supposed to mean ? Please release 0.20 soon and document the features and syntax ;-)<br />
<br />
'''ffmpeg2theora -f image2 *.png -o output.ogg''' -> Failure <br />
<br />
Is / will be PNG (and BMP) supported or only PPM ?<br />
<br />
[[User:DOS386|DOS386]] 07:39, 2 August 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Lossless compression for Theora II ? ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Could theora II also have lossless compression integrated.<br />
<br />
For many people it is important, especially people who take their movies seriously. <br />
or when it matters to have no data loss.</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:MIME_Types_and_File_Extensions&diff=9035Talk:MIME Types and File Extensions2008-05-15T12:12:47Z<p>Xpete: /* .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album (also separate pictures for each song)? Yes? This is fantastic */</p>
<hr />
<div>I came upon this page looking for a speex encoder but, loosely following your arguments, you guys seem to be arguing about how ogg files should be identified. My advice is to copy what they do with XML.<br />
<br />
audio/ogg -should be used for audio ogg files generally.<br />
audio/vorbis+ogg should be used for vorbis files in an ogg container.<br />
audio/speex+ogg should be used for speex files in an ogg container.<br />
<br />
If you put video files in ogg, use:<br />
<br />
video/ogg<br />
<br />
<br />
If you use ogg for non-media files use:<br />
<br />
application/ogg<br />
<br />
And and so on. As for people associating ogg files with vorbis, that is not surprising given that Vorbis was the only show in town for awhile. But because codecs likes speex are not widely supported yet it is important for people to be able to differenciate between different types of ogg files. Therefore I would use a double exension, like "*.spx.ogg" to identify speex files, and "*.vrbs.ogg" to identify vorbis files.<br />
--[[User:Logomachist|Logomachist]] 19:21, 1 April 2008 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== .flac - application/flac ==<br />
Why not audio/flac?<br />
<br />
Presumedly to distinguish it from "unencapsulated" flac. I'm not sure this makes sense though. Native flac is a fairly light container, and I suspect the current application/x-flac usage is just an analogy with ogg. OTOH, I don't think anyone's done flac over rtp, where this would be needed, but that is something that's interesting.<br />
<br />
:Edit: I have changed my opinion in this subject. Regardless, Josh agrees with audio/flac in case someone is willing to register it. application/flac was never registered.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:57, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::In a way application/flac to describe a stream which uses FLAC encapsulation is the same as using application/ogg to describe a stream using Ogg encapsulation. I don't really know if this is academic thinking and it's more developer-facing than end-user-facing. The question is what is going to be most consistent (and therefore make sense to someone trying to work it out). Since FLAC in Ogg is natively FLAC encapsulated it may make sense to use the same mime-type for native FLAC as the codec mime type to be used for FLAC in Ogg. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 07:26, 28 June 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== .spx - audio/ogg ==<br />
Why not audio/spx?<br />
To distinguish it from ogg vorbis.<br />
<br />
:audio/speex is only used for Speex RTP or in any other case of "Oggless" Speex. Speex in Ogg, which is a common sight, is audio/ogg just like every other audio-only Ogg file, be it Vorbis, FLAC, Ghost/CELT, MIDI, and even OggPCM.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 07:01, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: Then we still need it for RTP and in native container seems to me.<br />
:: Because of the RTP vorbis and speex should have a unique MIME type right?<br />
:: And also for native container for making correct differences.<br />
:: (One of the greatest mistakes of computer programming is identifying two different things as the same.)<br />
:: Because you're goanna have to register it, best use it as well.<br />
<br />
== ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" ==<br />
<br />
I can't accept that ".ogg" becomes Vorbis I only extension.<br />
Ogg is not a codec. It is the container of codecs.<br />
That change will be missleading people.<br />
<br />
".ogg" has been defined as "application/ogg" and already used as Theora+Vorbis.<br />
Redefining ".ogg" as Vorbis I only extension and changing MIME type to "audio/ogg" is not backward-compatible.<br />
Changing spec should be more carefully.<br />
If possible, should not change fixed spec. (I know becoming RFC does not mean fixed spec. But it is treated as fixed spec) --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 07:31, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:We understand your concern, but application/ogg isn't about audio, and people out there have wrongly associated .ogg with Vorbis only, making it harder for other codecs like Theora to succeed because of the file extension. They do not understand that Ogg is a container; they think Ogg is Vorbis. Although this proposal is somewhat radical and some people aren't 100% happy with it, it's for the best. video/ogg and audio/ogg will also be much useful now with the <video> and <audio> elements of HTML 5.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:04, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::".ogv" and ".oga" may be useful. I can accept this. But changing the definition of ".ogg" is really needed? I can't find the necessity of this. It breaks backward-compatibility. No one will be happy with this change... --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 13:56, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::We are not breaking backwards-comaptibility. That's why Vorbis and Speex will be allowed to use .ogg and .spx instead of .oga. The only thing that may break backwards-compatibility is deprecating application/ogg in favor od video/ogg and audio/ogg. That and Theora files, but since there are no Theora hardware players that we know of, existing Theora files may be renamed to .ogv easily, making compatibility with previous files a non-issue. Backwards-compatibility was seriously considered during the creation of this proposal. We are not breaking it.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:53, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ummmmm..... I think ".ogg" re-definition is not necessary. My best resolution is simply adding the new ext definitions to RFC:<br />
::::* ".ogg" is application/ogg (as RFC3534)<br />
::::* define new ext and MIME : ".ogx", ".oga", ".ogv", etc...<br />
::::* Use of new extensions is recommended.<br />
::::* Official tools are using new ext (except .ogg for Vorbis I?)<br />
::::Changing of ".ogg"'s MIME type is really necessary? --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 16:35, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::: Want also to see more consistent behaviour like changing name of vorbis into something like n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
::::: And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis <br />
::::: ogx is a very good way to overcome problems but be sure to let it have an internal version number for making changes later<br />
::::: Because of RTP and native containers codecs better have unique MIME-types, always:<br />
::::: Changes: vorbis: still .vorbis would be better(change name to something that doesn't starts with a v, nor, xor or g)<br />
::::: This solves the problem with backwards compatability because .ogg isn't used. <br />
::::: <br />
::::: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/vorbis, speex: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/speex<br />
::::: (audio/ogg with everything on it is being used for .oga and that <br />
::::: stands for ogg audio is very consistent and easy to see)<br />
::::: It has to be registered anyway for RTP !!!! <br />
::::: (It wouldn't be such a big assigment now to do that, but over a year or two, <br />
::::: you can't go back anymore because of compatability!!!)<br />
:::::<br />
::::: And people think that vorbis is a video format because it starts with a v.<br />
::::: So they look around if their player supports vorbis video but they find out only audio is supported.<br />
::::: Mad about getting wrong information and quit ogg for an alternative mostly.<br />
::::: Please change the name or create a new format that is essentially vorbis with another name. <br />
::::: (And also add new metadata formats in to have a reason for people to update.)<br />
<br />
==text/cmml==<br />
text/cmml for CMML without container: the Codec mime types are to be used in Skeleton, can this mime type be applied to the CMML Ogg mapping? (It's not plain text in the way that Vorbis mapped into Ogg is exactly audio/vorbis.)<br />
<br />
== .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album (also separate pictures for each song)? Yes? This is fantastic==<br />
<br />
Can multiple audio streams/files be packed to one oga? <br />
(I mean that there are seperatable flac/speex/vorbis files that can be played separately). <br />
If this is the case then oga is a very good candidate for <br />
ripping a cd with all of it's contents and metadata without loss.<br />
<br />
On a cd there is usually a picture. If you rip the cd to one of Xiph.org's free formats, <br />
it's lost because nothing supports this. <br />
Mayby oga could support this with some extra metadata and pictures in jpeg: <br />
a picture for the .oga and a picture for each number via metadata-system or something like that. <br />
This way someone can easily rip cd's and <br />
keep them in a consistent way on his or her computer. <br />
(One oga per cd, with the same picture as one the cd box, with all the numbers of one cd in oga file that can be played separatelly)<br />
<br />
:Yes, Ogg can carry multiple streams of audio, so you could backup an entire album in Ogg as FLAC or Vorbis and use the .oga extension. In this case alone, it is recommended to use .oga instead of .ogg because .ogg is for a single Vorbis stream file, while .oga requires a Skeleton stream which helps players recognize all the different songs in the file. Confused? One song, .ogg. Multiple songs in one file, .oga. Just make sure that the .oga file has a Skeleton stream. You can verify that with the ogginfo command line tool. And yes, you can also add a JPEG or PNG inside Ogg. I just don't know of any program that supports it, but theoretically it is possible. Just a heads up again, a song and an image are two streams of data, not just one, so again it would use .oga instead of .ogg. This also prevents breaking existing players that don't support embeded images.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:48, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: This sounds great and about streams of audio: <br />
Can I think of those streams also as separate audio files inside a multistream file? <br />
Because flac for example can also do up to eight streams.<br />
<br />
<br />
Have also a few other questions:<br />
- Is it possible to have an oga with an album in with a mix of songs in flac, vorbis and speexs?<br />
- Is it possible in oga to have a different picture for each song, stream ?<br />
(For when people make their own albums out of different albums and they want the picture of that album for each song.)<br />
<br />
:Again, yes. Theoretically, there is no limitation in what you can put in Ogg and the order you want it in, but while the format has no such limitations, this is not the case with the software out there. So, the short answer is, for the general public it will look as if Ogg cannot do that which you ask even though it can.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 06:58, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
:: Fantastic, please make sure this is included into the libraries of Xiph.org since applications can easily include them.<br />
<br />
:::To the extent that is possible, the libraries already support embeding of pictures in Ogg. The problem is the programs out there. If you care about this issue and you are either a developer or have money to hire one, you should patch free software programs like VLC to support it. Then hopefully the non-free programs like foobar2000 will follow the lead.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 12:48, 2 February 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
::::When is there going to be support for lyrics for audiofiles and in what form (what file extensions will be able to have it and what metadata standards will be able to do it) ?<br />
::::It is currently no way to save those.<br />
<br />
:::::Support in third party player software ? Lyrics for audio files are a lot like movie subtitles - text mapped to a time interval (unless you mean lyrics without the timing, in which case you could store them in Vorbis comments).<br />
:::::For timed lyrics, CMML and Kate can store this in a muxed stream, with the caveat that many Vorbis-only players will choke on a muxed stream.<br />
:::::You still need a way to display those in a player, however, but this is a question for the programmers for whatever player you're using<br />
::::::Hoped for player (or specification) that is able to show text mapped to a time interval without the timing. <br />
::::::Or else the text have to stand in the file two times. One time for mapping and another time for serving as meta data.</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:MIME_Types_and_File_Extensions&diff=9010Talk:MIME Types and File Extensions2008-05-09T17:18:26Z<p>Xpete: /* .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album (also separate pictures for each song)? Yes? This is fantastic */</p>
<hr />
<div>I came upon this page looking for a speex encoder but, loosely following your arguments, you guys seem to be arguing about how ogg files should be identified. My advice is to copy what they do with XML.<br />
<br />
audio/ogg -should be used for audio ogg files generally.<br />
audio/vorbis+ogg should be used for vorbis files in an ogg container.<br />
audio/speex+ogg should be used for speex files in an ogg container.<br />
<br />
If you put video files in ogg, use:<br />
<br />
video/ogg<br />
<br />
<br />
If you use ogg for non-media files use:<br />
<br />
application/ogg<br />
<br />
And and so on. As for people associating ogg files with vorbis, that is not surprising given that Vorbis was the only show in town for awhile. But because codecs likes speex are not widely supported yet it is important for people to be able to differenciate between different types of ogg files. Therefore I would use a double exension, like "*.spx.ogg" to identify speex files, and "*.vrbs.ogg" to identify vorbis files.<br />
--[[User:Logomachist|Logomachist]] 19:21, 1 April 2008 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== .flac - application/flac ==<br />
Why not audio/flac?<br />
<br />
Presumedly to distinguish it from "unencapsulated" flac. I'm not sure this makes sense though. Native flac is a fairly light container, and I suspect the current application/x-flac usage is just an analogy with ogg. OTOH, I don't think anyone's done flac over rtp, where this would be needed, but that is something that's interesting.<br />
<br />
:Edit: I have changed my opinion in this subject. Regardless, Josh agrees with audio/flac in case someone is willing to register it. application/flac was never registered.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:57, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::In a way application/flac to describe a stream which uses FLAC encapsulation is the same as using application/ogg to describe a stream using Ogg encapsulation. I don't really know if this is academic thinking and it's more developer-facing than end-user-facing. The question is what is going to be most consistent (and therefore make sense to someone trying to work it out). Since FLAC in Ogg is natively FLAC encapsulated it may make sense to use the same mime-type for native FLAC as the codec mime type to be used for FLAC in Ogg. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 07:26, 28 June 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== .spx - audio/ogg ==<br />
Why not audio/spx?<br />
To distinguish it from ogg vorbis.<br />
<br />
:audio/speex is only used for Speex RTP or in any other case of "Oggless" Speex. Speex in Ogg, which is a common sight, is audio/ogg just like every other audio-only Ogg file, be it Vorbis, FLAC, Ghost/CELT, MIDI, and even OggPCM.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 07:01, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: Then we still need it for RTP and in native container seems to me.<br />
:: Because of the RTP vorbis and speex should have a unique MIME type right?<br />
:: And also for native container for making correct differences.<br />
:: (One of the greatest mistakes of computer programming is identifying two different things as the same.)<br />
:: Because you're goanna have to register it, best use it as well.<br />
<br />
== ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" ==<br />
<br />
I can't accept that ".ogg" becomes Vorbis I only extension.<br />
Ogg is not a codec. It is the container of codecs.<br />
That change will be missleading people.<br />
<br />
".ogg" has been defined as "application/ogg" and already used as Theora+Vorbis.<br />
Redefining ".ogg" as Vorbis I only extension and changing MIME type to "audio/ogg" is not backward-compatible.<br />
Changing spec should be more carefully.<br />
If possible, should not change fixed spec. (I know becoming RFC does not mean fixed spec. But it is treated as fixed spec) --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 07:31, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:We understand your concern, but application/ogg isn't about audio, and people out there have wrongly associated .ogg with Vorbis only, making it harder for other codecs like Theora to succeed because of the file extension. They do not understand that Ogg is a container; they think Ogg is Vorbis. Although this proposal is somewhat radical and some people aren't 100% happy with it, it's for the best. video/ogg and audio/ogg will also be much useful now with the <video> and <audio> elements of HTML 5.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:04, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::".ogv" and ".oga" may be useful. I can accept this. But changing the definition of ".ogg" is really needed? I can't find the necessity of this. It breaks backward-compatibility. No one will be happy with this change... --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 13:56, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::We are not breaking backwards-comaptibility. That's why Vorbis and Speex will be allowed to use .ogg and .spx instead of .oga. The only thing that may break backwards-compatibility is deprecating application/ogg in favor od video/ogg and audio/ogg. That and Theora files, but since there are no Theora hardware players that we know of, existing Theora files may be renamed to .ogv easily, making compatibility with previous files a non-issue. Backwards-compatibility was seriously considered during the creation of this proposal. We are not breaking it.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:53, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ummmmm..... I think ".ogg" re-definition is not necessary. My best resolution is simply adding the new ext definitions to RFC:<br />
::::* ".ogg" is application/ogg (as RFC3534)<br />
::::* define new ext and MIME : ".ogx", ".oga", ".ogv", etc...<br />
::::* Use of new extensions is recommended.<br />
::::* Official tools are using new ext (except .ogg for Vorbis I?)<br />
::::Changing of ".ogg"'s MIME type is really necessary? --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 16:35, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::: Want also to see more consistent behaviour like changing name of vorbis into something like n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
::::: And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis <br />
::::: ogx is a very good way to overcome problems but be sure to let it have an internal version number for making changes later<br />
::::: Because of RTP and native containers codecs better have unique MIME-types, always:<br />
::::: Changes: vorbis: still .vorbis would be better(change name to something that doesn't starts with a v, nor, xor or g)<br />
::::: This solves the problem with backwards compatability because .ogg isn't used. <br />
::::: <br />
::::: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/vorbis, speex: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/speex<br />
::::: (audio/ogg with everything on it is being used for .oga and that <br />
::::: stands for ogg audio is very consistent and easy to see)<br />
::::: It has to be registered anyway for RTP !!!! <br />
::::: (It wouldn't be such a big assigment now to do that, but over a year or two, <br />
::::: you can't go back anymore because of compatability!!!)<br />
:::::<br />
::::: And people think that vorbis is a video format because it starts with a v.<br />
::::: So they look around if their player supports vorbis video but they find out only audio is supported.<br />
::::: Mad about getting wrong information and quit ogg for an alternative mostly.<br />
::::: Please change the name or create a new format that is essentially vorbis with another name. <br />
::::: (And also add new metadata formats in to have a reason for people to update.)<br />
<br />
==text/cmml==<br />
text/cmml for CMML without container: the Codec mime types are to be used in Skeleton, can this mime type be applied to the CMML Ogg mapping? (It's not plain text in the way that Vorbis mapped into Ogg is exactly audio/vorbis.)<br />
<br />
== .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album (also separate pictures for each song)? Yes? This is fantastic==<br />
<br />
Can multiple audio streams/files be packed to one oga? <br />
(I mean that there are seperatable flac/speex/vorbis files that can be played separately). <br />
If this is the case then oga is a very good candidate for <br />
ripping a cd with all of it's contents and metadata without loss.<br />
<br />
On a cd there is usually a picture. If you rip the cd to one of Xiph.org's free formats, <br />
it's lost because nothing supports this. <br />
Mayby oga could support this with some extra metadata and pictures in jpeg: <br />
a picture for the .oga and a picture for each number via metadata-system or something like that. <br />
This way someone can easily rip cd's and <br />
keep them in a consistent way on his or her computer. <br />
(One oga per cd, with the same picture as one the cd box, with all the numbers of one cd in oga file that can be played separatelly)<br />
<br />
:Yes, Ogg can carry multiple streams of audio, so you could backup an entire album in Ogg as FLAC or Vorbis and use the .oga extension. In this case alone, it is recommended to use .oga instead of .ogg because .ogg is for a single Vorbis stream file, while .oga requires a Skeleton stream which helps players recognize all the different songs in the file. Confused? One song, .ogg. Multiple songs in one file, .oga. Just make sure that the .oga file has a Skeleton stream. You can verify that with the ogginfo command line tool. And yes, you can also add a JPEG or PNG inside Ogg. I just don't know of any program that supports it, but theoretically it is possible. Just a heads up again, a song and an image are two streams of data, not just one, so again it would use .oga instead of .ogg. This also prevents breaking existing players that don't support embeded images.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:48, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: This sounds great and about streams of audio: <br />
Can I think of those streams also as separate audio files inside a multistream file? <br />
Because flac for example can also do up to eight streams.<br />
<br />
<br />
Have also a few other questions:<br />
- Is it possible to have an oga with an album in with a mix of songs in flac, vorbis and speexs?<br />
- Is it possible in oga to have a different picture for each song, stream ?<br />
(For when people make their own albums out of different albums and they want the picture of that album for each song.)<br />
<br />
:Again, yes. Theoretically, there is no limitation in what you can put in Ogg and the order you want it in, but while the format has no such limitations, this is not the case with the software out there. So, the short answer is, for the general public it will look as if Ogg cannot do that which you ask even though it can.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 06:58, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
:: Fantastic, please make sure this is included into the libraries of Xiph.org since applications can easily include them.<br />
<br />
:::To the extent that is possible, the libraries already support embeding of pictures in Ogg. The problem is the programs out there. If you care about this issue and you are either a developer or have money to hire one, you should patch free software programs like VLC to support it. Then hopefully the non-free programs like foobar2000 will follow the lead.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 12:48, 2 February 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
::::When is there going to be support for lyrics for audiofiles and in what form (what file extensions will be able to have it and what metadata standards will be able to do it) ?<br />
It is currently no way to save those.</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:MIME_Types_and_File_Extensions&diff=9009Talk:MIME Types and File Extensions2008-05-09T17:17:21Z<p>Xpete: /* .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album (also separate pictures for each song)? Yes? This is fantastic */</p>
<hr />
<div>I came upon this page looking for a speex encoder but, loosely following your arguments, you guys seem to be arguing about how ogg files should be identified. My advice is to copy what they do with XML.<br />
<br />
audio/ogg -should be used for audio ogg files generally.<br />
audio/vorbis+ogg should be used for vorbis files in an ogg container.<br />
audio/speex+ogg should be used for speex files in an ogg container.<br />
<br />
If you put video files in ogg, use:<br />
<br />
video/ogg<br />
<br />
<br />
If you use ogg for non-media files use:<br />
<br />
application/ogg<br />
<br />
And and so on. As for people associating ogg files with vorbis, that is not surprising given that Vorbis was the only show in town for awhile. But because codecs likes speex are not widely supported yet it is important for people to be able to differenciate between different types of ogg files. Therefore I would use a double exension, like "*.spx.ogg" to identify speex files, and "*.vrbs.ogg" to identify vorbis files.<br />
--[[User:Logomachist|Logomachist]] 19:21, 1 April 2008 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== .flac - application/flac ==<br />
Why not audio/flac?<br />
<br />
Presumedly to distinguish it from "unencapsulated" flac. I'm not sure this makes sense though. Native flac is a fairly light container, and I suspect the current application/x-flac usage is just an analogy with ogg. OTOH, I don't think anyone's done flac over rtp, where this would be needed, but that is something that's interesting.<br />
<br />
:Edit: I have changed my opinion in this subject. Regardless, Josh agrees with audio/flac in case someone is willing to register it. application/flac was never registered.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:57, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::In a way application/flac to describe a stream which uses FLAC encapsulation is the same as using application/ogg to describe a stream using Ogg encapsulation. I don't really know if this is academic thinking and it's more developer-facing than end-user-facing. The question is what is going to be most consistent (and therefore make sense to someone trying to work it out). Since FLAC in Ogg is natively FLAC encapsulated it may make sense to use the same mime-type for native FLAC as the codec mime type to be used for FLAC in Ogg. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 07:26, 28 June 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== .spx - audio/ogg ==<br />
Why not audio/spx?<br />
To distinguish it from ogg vorbis.<br />
<br />
:audio/speex is only used for Speex RTP or in any other case of "Oggless" Speex. Speex in Ogg, which is a common sight, is audio/ogg just like every other audio-only Ogg file, be it Vorbis, FLAC, Ghost/CELT, MIDI, and even OggPCM.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 07:01, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: Then we still need it for RTP and in native container seems to me.<br />
:: Because of the RTP vorbis and speex should have a unique MIME type right?<br />
:: And also for native container for making correct differences.<br />
:: (One of the greatest mistakes of computer programming is identifying two different things as the same.)<br />
:: Because you're goanna have to register it, best use it as well.<br />
<br />
== ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" ==<br />
<br />
I can't accept that ".ogg" becomes Vorbis I only extension.<br />
Ogg is not a codec. It is the container of codecs.<br />
That change will be missleading people.<br />
<br />
".ogg" has been defined as "application/ogg" and already used as Theora+Vorbis.<br />
Redefining ".ogg" as Vorbis I only extension and changing MIME type to "audio/ogg" is not backward-compatible.<br />
Changing spec should be more carefully.<br />
If possible, should not change fixed spec. (I know becoming RFC does not mean fixed spec. But it is treated as fixed spec) --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 07:31, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:We understand your concern, but application/ogg isn't about audio, and people out there have wrongly associated .ogg with Vorbis only, making it harder for other codecs like Theora to succeed because of the file extension. They do not understand that Ogg is a container; they think Ogg is Vorbis. Although this proposal is somewhat radical and some people aren't 100% happy with it, it's for the best. video/ogg and audio/ogg will also be much useful now with the <video> and <audio> elements of HTML 5.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:04, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::".ogv" and ".oga" may be useful. I can accept this. But changing the definition of ".ogg" is really needed? I can't find the necessity of this. It breaks backward-compatibility. No one will be happy with this change... --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 13:56, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::We are not breaking backwards-comaptibility. That's why Vorbis and Speex will be allowed to use .ogg and .spx instead of .oga. The only thing that may break backwards-compatibility is deprecating application/ogg in favor od video/ogg and audio/ogg. That and Theora files, but since there are no Theora hardware players that we know of, existing Theora files may be renamed to .ogv easily, making compatibility with previous files a non-issue. Backwards-compatibility was seriously considered during the creation of this proposal. We are not breaking it.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:53, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ummmmm..... I think ".ogg" re-definition is not necessary. My best resolution is simply adding the new ext definitions to RFC:<br />
::::* ".ogg" is application/ogg (as RFC3534)<br />
::::* define new ext and MIME : ".ogx", ".oga", ".ogv", etc...<br />
::::* Use of new extensions is recommended.<br />
::::* Official tools are using new ext (except .ogg for Vorbis I?)<br />
::::Changing of ".ogg"'s MIME type is really necessary? --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 16:35, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::: Want also to see more consistent behaviour like changing name of vorbis into something like n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
::::: And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis <br />
::::: ogx is a very good way to overcome problems but be sure to let it have an internal version number for making changes later<br />
::::: Because of RTP and native containers codecs better have unique MIME-types, always:<br />
::::: Changes: vorbis: still .vorbis would be better(change name to something that doesn't starts with a v, nor, xor or g)<br />
::::: This solves the problem with backwards compatability because .ogg isn't used. <br />
::::: <br />
::::: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/vorbis, speex: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/speex<br />
::::: (audio/ogg with everything on it is being used for .oga and that <br />
::::: stands for ogg audio is very consistent and easy to see)<br />
::::: It has to be registered anyway for RTP !!!! <br />
::::: (It wouldn't be such a big assigment now to do that, but over a year or two, <br />
::::: you can't go back anymore because of compatability!!!)<br />
:::::<br />
::::: And people think that vorbis is a video format because it starts with a v.<br />
::::: So they look around if their player supports vorbis video but they find out only audio is supported.<br />
::::: Mad about getting wrong information and quit ogg for an alternative mostly.<br />
::::: Please change the name or create a new format that is essentially vorbis with another name. <br />
::::: (And also add new metadata formats in to have a reason for people to update.)<br />
<br />
==text/cmml==<br />
text/cmml for CMML without container: the Codec mime types are to be used in Skeleton, can this mime type be applied to the CMML Ogg mapping? (It's not plain text in the way that Vorbis mapped into Ogg is exactly audio/vorbis.)<br />
<br />
== .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album (also separate pictures for each song)? Yes? This is fantastic==<br />
<br />
Can multiple audio streams/files be packed to one oga? <br />
(I mean that there are seperatable flac/speex/vorbis files that can be played separately). <br />
If this is the case then oga is a very good candidate for <br />
ripping a cd with all of it's contents and metadata without loss.<br />
<br />
On a cd there is usually a picture. If you rip the cd to one of Xiph.org's free formats, <br />
it's lost because nothing supports this. <br />
Mayby oga could support this with some extra metadata and pictures in jpeg: <br />
a picture for the .oga and a picture for each number via metadata-system or something like that. <br />
This way someone can easily rip cd's and <br />
keep them in a consistent way on his or her computer. <br />
(One oga per cd, with the same picture as one the cd box, with all the numbers of one cd in oga file that can be played separatelly)<br />
<br />
:Yes, Ogg can carry multiple streams of audio, so you could backup an entire album in Ogg as FLAC or Vorbis and use the .oga extension. In this case alone, it is recommended to use .oga instead of .ogg because .ogg is for a single Vorbis stream file, while .oga requires a Skeleton stream which helps players recognize all the different songs in the file. Confused? One song, .ogg. Multiple songs in one file, .oga. Just make sure that the .oga file has a Skeleton stream. You can verify that with the ogginfo command line tool. And yes, you can also add a JPEG or PNG inside Ogg. I just don't know of any program that supports it, but theoretically it is possible. Just a heads up again, a song and an image are two streams of data, not just one, so again it would use .oga instead of .ogg. This also prevents breaking existing players that don't support embeded images.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:48, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: This sounds great and about streams of audio: <br />
Can I think of those streams also as separate audio files inside a multistream file? <br />
Because flac for example can also do up to eight streams.<br />
<br />
<br />
Have also a few other questions:<br />
- Is it possible to have an oga with an album in with a mix of songs in flac, vorbis and speexs?<br />
- Is it possible in oga to have a different picture for each song, stream ?<br />
(For when people make their own albums out of different albums and they want the picture of that album for each song.)<br />
<br />
:Again, yes. Theoretically, there is no limitation in what you can put in Ogg and the order you want it in, but while the format has no such limitations, this is not the case with the software out there. So, the short answer is, for the general public it will look as if Ogg cannot do that which you ask even though it can.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 06:58, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
:: Fantastic, please make sure this is included into the libraries of Xiph.org since applications can easily include them.<br />
<br />
:::To the extent that is possible, the libraries already support embeding of pictures in Ogg. The problem is the programs out there. If you care about this issue and you are either a developer or have money to hire one, you should patch free software programs like VLC to support it. Then hopefully the non-free programs like foobar2000 will follow the lead.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 12:48, 2 February 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
::::When is there going to be support for lyrics for audiofiles and in ::::what form (what file extensions will be able to have it and what ::::metadata standards will be able to do it) ?</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:Vorbis&diff=8948Talk:Vorbis2008-04-28T17:22:21Z<p>Xpete: Deleted unnecessary item</p>
<hr />
<div>== Question ==<br />
<br />
What about non-standard encoders and tunings?<br />
<br />
Shouldn't you make a page about how to encode vorbis files?<br />
<br />
[JohnRipley] How about a list of third party implementations of the Vorbis codec itself? For example: JOrbis, and mine :)<br />
<br />
== Windows Media Player Encoding ==<br />
<br />
[cparker] I'd like to know how to enable Windows Media Player to encode vorbis files directly from the "Rip" tab. I'm using Windows Media Player 9-10. I checked vorbis.com[http://vorbis.com], and it appears to be quite outdated. (It makes a reference to irc.xiph.org.)<br />
<br />
== HW requirements ? ==<br />
<br />
[xerces8] What CPU power (in terms of popular PC CPUs) is required for realtime decoding of Vorbis ?<br />
Does tremor require more/less time/space as the "classic" version ?<br />
(I plan to purchase a used laptop to use as a Vorbis playing station, so I need to know, thanks)<br />
<br />
== RE: HW requirements ? ==<br />
<br />
> What CPU power required for realtime decoding of Vorbis<br />
<br />
Why don't you test ? 100 MHz Pentium 1 (just a guess)<br />
<br />
> Does tremor require more/less time/space as the "classic" version ?<br />
<br />
Space: same/irrelevant/unreproductable (???), time: probably slightly slower<br />
<br />
[[User:DOS386|DOS386]] 15:21, 19 October 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Merge proposal ==<br />
<br />
Any reason for this:<br />
<br />
* [[VorbisSoftwareEncoders]]: List of libvorbis frontends<br />
* [[VorbisEncoders]]: List of encoders (e.g. Xiph, aoTuV, GT, vorbis-java)<br />
<br />
Merge them ? [[User:DOS386|DOS386]] 15:21, 19 October 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:I guess that's a solution.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 11:16, 20 October 2007 (PDT)</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&diff=8947Talk:Main Page2008-04-28T17:21:11Z<p>Xpete: </p>
<hr />
<div>According to [[Special:Popularpages]], the various pages in the Demonstration section are the most visited parts of the wiki, so I moved that section to the top of the main page. --[[User:Andrel|Andrel]] 09:19, 26 April 2006 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Work in Progress ==<br />
<br />
It's not clear on first view (to me at least) that<br />
[[Main Page#Work in Progress]] is a link to<br />
[[Work In Progress]] (as none of the other section headings<br />
are). Possibly it should be a normal heading with the link<br />
in a short text below (à la [[Main Page#Other software]]).<br />
<br />
[[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 05:22, 1 February 2006 (PST)<br />
<br />
You are free to fix that. It's a wiki after all -- [[User:Jmspeex|Jmspeex]] 19:22, 1 February 2006 (PST)<br />
<br />
Done (just didn't want to trample all over the front page) -- [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 04:33, 2 February 2006 (PST)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Lock This Page ==<br />
<br />
On all/most other wikis the Main Page is locked so only admins can edit it. Due to the amount of vandalism, I think the [[Main Page]] should be locked and all changes discussed here. --[[User:SonicChao|SonicChao]] 05:11, 27 August 2006 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Paranoia / cdparanoia ==<br />
<br />
Why is there no listing under software of paranoia or cdparanoia? Also, there is no listing on the main xiph.org page. Is that software acknowlegded? --[[User:WhiteDragon|WhiteDragon]] 19:52, 9 September 2006 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Suggestion :-O ==<br />
First I want to congratulate you on the wonderful work being done. Thank you very much :-)<br />
Please allow anonymous edits (like wikipedia does) b'caus i'm too lazy to login :-)<br />
<br />
:I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the ton of hidden links I just culled has nothing to do with you... I can't speak for the people running Xiph but requiring a login reduces some of the flood of spam that shows up here, and Wikipedia has many more resources available to deal with it than this wiki does. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 06:06, 24 November 2006 (PST)<br />
<br />
== Proposal for a developer section ==<br />
<br />
As more developers start to "get it" about how ultra cool Ogg / Vorbis / Theora / etc is, wouldn't it be great to have a wiki section devoted to helping these budding programmers along? eg: i've written some nice code i'd be happy to share. Could contain a programming FAQ, how-to's, and real code. Thoughts? [[User:Davec|Davec]] 13:44, 6 December 2006 (PST)<br />
<br />
== Why CamelCase? ==<br />
<br />
MediaWiki supports free links, why are most page titles in the CamelCase format? - [[User:Sikon|Sikon]] 05:34, 27 February 2007 (PST)<br />
:CamelCase? I don't see what you mean. If you think something's wrong, you may go ahead and change it. That's what wikis are for.--[[User:Saoshyant|Saoshyant]] 05:37, 27 February 2007 (PST)<br />
:[[WhatHappened|Historical reasons]]. The original wiki used software that only supported [http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?CamelCase CamelCase]. For new pages it is fine to use free links. I suggest not renaming pages, as many of them have good search ranking. [[User:Andrel|Andrel]] 07:03, 27 February 2007 (PST)<br />
I see now. And thanks for the WhatHappened link, Andrel. I managed to recover two pages so far from web archive. I wonder if I'll savage it further.--[[User:Saoshyant|Saoshyant]] 08:28, 27 February 2007 (PST)<br />
<br />
== ICECast2 vs vBulletin ==<br />
<br />
Hi there,<br />
Fisrt let me thank you all the great work and the self performance over the ICECast streaming server<br />
<br />
I also Wonder if anyone had included ICECast directly into a vBulletin board having it worked from there on ..meaning enbable to use same username,permission and prefference from the database itself running on MySQL 5 having as if setting permission on for a usergroupe from there to enable them streaming out on your ICECast server and others can apply and yet just participate into the main forum itself<br />
<br />
I do have both running-up over my dedicated server now meanwhile if any would want to help me out creating like this hack or template am willing to give them all access for working over it <br />
can YOU imagine how friendly and powerful that ICECast would mean then<br />
<br />
hey give me a shout if willing to try it<br />
<br />
admin@gysmo.net<br />
<br />
== News ==<br />
<br />
Hi,<br />
<br />
I would really strongly suggest adding this to your news items... Someone has made a graphical interface for ffmpeg2theora at http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Video/Other-VIDEO-Tools/GFrontEnd-for-ffmpeg2theora.shtml<br />
<br />
I don't know the technical difficulties of building such a tool, but regardless, the ability for a common Windows user like myself to be able to just easily convert a proprietary file format to Ogg-Theora is really cool... I tested it out on the sample WMV file that came with this laptop, and the converted file worked great in Cortado... Of course, news about programs that allow one to record directly to Ogg-Theora would be even better, but this is still very important, imo... [[User:Brettz9|Brettz9]] 20:56, 4 July 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== .NET :-( ==<br />
<br />
> I would really strongly suggest adding this to your news items<br />
<br />
Check it out: > Requirements: .NET Framework 2.0<br />
<br />
Also, with 1.5 MiB size it's bigger than FFMPEG2THEORA itself (1.3 MiB after recompressing with UPX 3.0 --ultra-brute) - not that VERY good IMHO.<br />
<br />
: Sorry, do you mean MB as in Megabytes? That's a drop in the bucket of most hard drives nowadays, no? And .NET was already on my system for something I had downloaded earlier (not sure what, but maybe others may have it already too). My interest in seeing it announced is not how well it is implemented--if there are better alternatives let them be known--but that such a tool exists and it works (at least if you get the requirements).<br />
<br />
== MiB ||| .NET ==<br />
<br />
> Sorry, do you mean MB as in Megabytes?<br />
<br />
NO. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_prefix]]<br />
<br />
> And .NET was already on my system for something I had downloaded earlier (not sure what, but maybe others may have it already too)<br />
<br />
I don't have .NET and don't like it :-( Finally, the important thing is the FFMPEG2THEOA core and it works perfectly for me without .NET ;-)<br />
<br />
== Link to Games in Demonstrations Section? ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't there be a link to [[Games_that_use_Theora]] in the section with other demonstrations? Maybe there's not enough games listed on the page to warrant it?<br />
--[[User:Sim9|Sim9]] 11:47, 27 October 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:Yes. There's only two games listed right now. I'm pretty sure there's more out there. Sim9, can you help us listing more games?--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 11:56, 28 October 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::I'm sure you're right, there ''has'' to be more than two. Theora (and Vorbis) is now by default included in the Torque game engine, so there must be a lot of games using it by now. I just polled the Torque community to see if they know of any to help us fill up the list with some successful integrations! --[[User:Sim9|Sim9]] 19:02, 29 October 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
== For lossless video compression, make it possible to have Lagarith codec as video ==<br />
Lagarith is a lossless video codec. Please support it, with supporting I mean that it can be used in the ogg and annodex containers as a native video format.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Random access Ogg Vorbis decoder written in Java. ==<br />
<br />
And I am very glad that now you have an encoder written in Java. Can vorbis-java-1.0.0 also do the decoding?<br />
Is there an example of how to use vorbis-java decoder?<br />
If yes, can it seek, i.e. decode an Ogg Vorbis bitstream from a random position?<br />
--[[User:Sergey|Sergey]] 12:53, 9 February 2008 (PST)</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:MIME_Types_and_File_Extensions&diff=8416Talk:MIME Types and File Extensions2008-02-14T17:33:21Z<p>Xpete: /* .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album (also separate pictures for each song)? Yes? Oh Boy, this is fantastic */</p>
<hr />
<div>== .flac - application/flac ==<br />
Why not audio/flac?<br />
<br />
Presumedly to distinguish it from "unencapsulated" flac. I'm not sure this makes sense though. Native flac is a fairly light container, and I suspect the current application/x-flac usage is just an analogy with ogg. OTOH, I don't think anyone's done flac over rtp, where this would be needed, but that is something that's interesting.<br />
<br />
:Edit: I have changed my opinion in this subject. Regardless, Josh agrees with audio/flac in case someone is willing to register it. application/flac was never registered.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:57, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::In a way application/flac to describe a stream which uses FLAC encapsulation is the same as using application/ogg to describe a stream using Ogg encapsulation. I don't really know if this is academic thinking and it's more developer-facing than end-user-facing. The question is what is going to be most consistent (and therefore make sense to someone trying to work it out). Since FLAC in Ogg is natively FLAC encapsulated it may make sense to use the same mime-type for native FLAC as the codec mime type to be used for FLAC in Ogg. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 07:26, 28 June 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== .spx - audio/ogg ==<br />
Why not audio/spx?<br />
To distinguish it from ogg vorbis.<br />
<br />
:audio/speex is only used for Speex RTP or in any other case of "Oggless" Speex. Speex in Ogg, which is a common sight, is audio/ogg just like every other audio-only Ogg file, be it Vorbis, FLAC, Ghost/CELT, MIDI, and even OggPCM.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 07:01, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: Then we still need it for RTP and in native container seems to me.<br />
:: Because of the RTP vorbis and speex should have a unique MIME type right?<br />
:: And also for native container for making correct differences.<br />
:: (One of the greatest mistakes of computer programming is identifying two different things as the same.)<br />
:: Because you're goanna have to register it, best use it as well.<br />
<br />
== ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" ==<br />
<br />
I can't accept that ".ogg" becomes Vorbis I only extension.<br />
Ogg is not a codec. It is the container of codecs.<br />
That change will be missleading people.<br />
<br />
".ogg" has been defined as "application/ogg" and already used as Theora+Vorbis.<br />
Redefining ".ogg" as Vorbis I only extension and changing MIME type to "audio/ogg" is not backward-compatible.<br />
Changing spec should be more carefully.<br />
If possible, should not change fixed spec. (I know becoming RFC does not mean fixed spec. But it is treated as fixed spec) --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 07:31, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:We understand your concern, but application/ogg isn't about audio, and people out there have wrongly associated .ogg with Vorbis only, making it harder for other codecs like Theora to succeed because of the file extension. They do not understand that Ogg is a container; they think Ogg is Vorbis. Although this proposal is somewhat radical and some people aren't 100% happy with it, it's for the best. video/ogg and audio/ogg will also be much useful now with the <video> and <audio> elements of HTML 5.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:04, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::".ogv" and ".oga" may be useful. I can accept this. But changing the definition of ".ogg" is really needed? I can't find the necessity of this. It breaks backward-compatibility. No one will be happy with this change... --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 13:56, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::We are not breaking backwards-comaptibility. That's why Vorbis and Speex will be allowed to use .ogg and .spx instead of .oga. The only thing that may break backwards-compatibility is deprecating application/ogg in favor od video/ogg and audio/ogg. That and Theora files, but since there are no Theora hardware players that we know of, existing Theora files may be renamed to .ogv easily, making compatibility with previous files a non-issue. Backwards-compatibility was seriously considered during the creation of this proposal. We are not breaking it.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:53, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ummmmm..... I think ".ogg" re-definition is not necessary. My best resolution is simply adding the new ext definitions to RFC:<br />
::::* ".ogg" is application/ogg (as RFC3534)<br />
::::* define new ext and MIME : ".ogx", ".oga", ".ogv", etc...<br />
::::* Use of new extensions is recommended.<br />
::::* Official tools are using new ext (except .ogg for Vorbis I?)<br />
::::Changing of ".ogg"'s MIME type is really necessary? --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 16:35, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::: Want also to see more consistent behaviour like changing name of vorbis into something like n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
::::: And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis <br />
::::: ogx is a very good way to overcome problems but be sure to let it have an internal version number for making changes later<br />
::::: Because of RTP and native containers codecs better have unique MIME-types, always:<br />
::::: Changes: vorbis: still .vorbis would be better(change name to something that doesn't starts with a v, nor, xor or g)<br />
::::: This solves the problem with backwards compatability because .ogg isn't used. <br />
::::: <br />
::::: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/vorbis, speex: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/speex<br />
::::: (audio/ogg with everything on it is being used for .oga and that <br />
::::: stands for ogg audio is very consistent and easy to see)<br />
::::: It has to be registered anyway for RTP !!!! <br />
::::: (It wouldn't be such a big assigment now to do that, but over a year or two, <br />
::::: you can't go back anymore because of compatability!!!)<br />
:::::<br />
::::: And people think that vorbis is a video format because it starts with a v.<br />
::::: So they look around if their player supports vorbis video but they find out only audio is supported.<br />
::::: Mad about getting wrong information and quit ogg for an alternative mostly.<br />
::::: Please change the name or create a new format that is essentially vorbis with another name. <br />
::::: (And also add new metadata formats in to have a reason for people to update.)<br />
<br />
==text/cmml==<br />
text/cmml for CMML without container: the Codec mime types are to be used in Skeleton, can this mime type be applied to the CMML Ogg mapping? (It's not plain text in the way that Vorbis mapped into Ogg is exactly audio/vorbis.)<br />
<br />
== .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album (also separate pictures for each song)? Yes? This is fantastic==<br />
<br />
Can multiple audio streams/files be packed to one oga? <br />
(I mean that there are seperatable flac/speex/vorbis files that can be played separately). <br />
If this is the case then oga is a very good candidate for <br />
ripping a cd with all of it's contents and metadata without loss.<br />
<br />
On a cd there is usually a picture. If you rip the cd to one of Xiph.org's free formats, <br />
it's lost because nothing supports this. <br />
Mayby oga could support this with some extra metadata and pictures in jpeg: <br />
a picture for the .oga and a picture for each number via metadata-system or something like that. <br />
This way someone can easily rip cd's and <br />
keep them in a consistent way on his or her computer. <br />
(One oga per cd, with the same picture as one the cd box, with all the numbers of one cd in oga file that can be played separatelly)<br />
<br />
:Yes, Ogg can carry multiple streams of audio, so you could backup an entire album in Ogg as FLAC or Vorbis and use the .oga extension. In this case alone, it is recommended to use .oga instead of .ogg because .ogg is for a single Vorbis stream file, while .oga requires a Skeleton stream which helps players recognize all the different songs in the file. Confused? One song, .ogg. Multiple songs in one file, .oga. Just make sure that the .oga file has a Skeleton stream. You can verify that with the ogginfo command line tool. And yes, you can also add a JPEG or PNG inside Ogg. I just don't know of any program that supports it, but theoretically it is possible. Just a heads up again, a song and an image are two streams of data, not just one, so again it would use .oga instead of .ogg. This also prevents breaking existing players that don't support embeded images.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:48, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: This sounds great and about streams of audio: <br />
Can I think of those streams also as separate audio files inside a multistream file? <br />
Because flac for example can also do up to eight streams.<br />
<br />
<br />
Have also a few other questions:<br />
- Is it possible to have an oga with an album in with a mix of songs in flac, vorbis and speexs?<br />
- Is it possible in oga to have a different picture for each song, stream ?<br />
(For when people make their own albums out of different albums and they want the picture of that album for each song.)<br />
<br />
:Again, yes. Theoretically, there is no limitation in what you can put in Ogg and the order you want it in, but while the format has no such limitations, this is not the case with the software out there. So, the short answer is, for the general public it will look as if Ogg cannot do that which you ask even though it can.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 06:58, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
:: Fantastic, please make sure this is included into the libraries of Xiph.org since applications can easily include them.<br />
<br />
:::To the extent that is possible, the libraries already support embeding of pictures in Ogg. The problem is the programs out there. If you care about this issue and you are either a developer or have money to hire one, you should patch free software programs like VLC to support it. Then hopefully the non-free programs like foobar2000 will follow the lead.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 12:48, 2 February 2008 (PST)</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:MIME_Types_and_File_Extensions&diff=8415Talk:MIME Types and File Extensions2008-02-14T17:32:30Z<p>Xpete: /* ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" */</p>
<hr />
<div>== .flac - application/flac ==<br />
Why not audio/flac?<br />
<br />
Presumedly to distinguish it from "unencapsulated" flac. I'm not sure this makes sense though. Native flac is a fairly light container, and I suspect the current application/x-flac usage is just an analogy with ogg. OTOH, I don't think anyone's done flac over rtp, where this would be needed, but that is something that's interesting.<br />
<br />
:Edit: I have changed my opinion in this subject. Regardless, Josh agrees with audio/flac in case someone is willing to register it. application/flac was never registered.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:57, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::In a way application/flac to describe a stream which uses FLAC encapsulation is the same as using application/ogg to describe a stream using Ogg encapsulation. I don't really know if this is academic thinking and it's more developer-facing than end-user-facing. The question is what is going to be most consistent (and therefore make sense to someone trying to work it out). Since FLAC in Ogg is natively FLAC encapsulated it may make sense to use the same mime-type for native FLAC as the codec mime type to be used for FLAC in Ogg. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 07:26, 28 June 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== .spx - audio/ogg ==<br />
Why not audio/spx?<br />
To distinguish it from ogg vorbis.<br />
<br />
:audio/speex is only used for Speex RTP or in any other case of "Oggless" Speex. Speex in Ogg, which is a common sight, is audio/ogg just like every other audio-only Ogg file, be it Vorbis, FLAC, Ghost/CELT, MIDI, and even OggPCM.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 07:01, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: Then we still need it for RTP and in native container seems to me.<br />
:: Because of the RTP vorbis and speex should have a unique MIME type right?<br />
:: And also for native container for making correct differences.<br />
:: (One of the greatest mistakes of computer programming is identifying two different things as the same.)<br />
:: Because you're goanna have to register it, best use it as well.<br />
<br />
== ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" ==<br />
<br />
I can't accept that ".ogg" becomes Vorbis I only extension.<br />
Ogg is not a codec. It is the container of codecs.<br />
That change will be missleading people.<br />
<br />
".ogg" has been defined as "application/ogg" and already used as Theora+Vorbis.<br />
Redefining ".ogg" as Vorbis I only extension and changing MIME type to "audio/ogg" is not backward-compatible.<br />
Changing spec should be more carefully.<br />
If possible, should not change fixed spec. (I know becoming RFC does not mean fixed spec. But it is treated as fixed spec) --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 07:31, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:We understand your concern, but application/ogg isn't about audio, and people out there have wrongly associated .ogg with Vorbis only, making it harder for other codecs like Theora to succeed because of the file extension. They do not understand that Ogg is a container; they think Ogg is Vorbis. Although this proposal is somewhat radical and some people aren't 100% happy with it, it's for the best. video/ogg and audio/ogg will also be much useful now with the <video> and <audio> elements of HTML 5.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:04, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::".ogv" and ".oga" may be useful. I can accept this. But changing the definition of ".ogg" is really needed? I can't find the necessity of this. It breaks backward-compatibility. No one will be happy with this change... --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 13:56, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::We are not breaking backwards-comaptibility. That's why Vorbis and Speex will be allowed to use .ogg and .spx instead of .oga. The only thing that may break backwards-compatibility is deprecating application/ogg in favor od video/ogg and audio/ogg. That and Theora files, but since there are no Theora hardware players that we know of, existing Theora files may be renamed to .ogv easily, making compatibility with previous files a non-issue. Backwards-compatibility was seriously considered during the creation of this proposal. We are not breaking it.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:53, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ummmmm..... I think ".ogg" re-definition is not necessary. My best resolution is simply adding the new ext definitions to RFC:<br />
::::* ".ogg" is application/ogg (as RFC3534)<br />
::::* define new ext and MIME : ".ogx", ".oga", ".ogv", etc...<br />
::::* Use of new extensions is recommended.<br />
::::* Official tools are using new ext (except .ogg for Vorbis I?)<br />
::::Changing of ".ogg"'s MIME type is really necessary? --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 16:35, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::: Want also to see more consistent behaviour like changing name of vorbis into something like n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
::::: And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis <br />
::::: ogx is a very good way to overcome problems but be sure to let it have an internal version number for making changes later<br />
::::: Because of RTP and native containers codecs better have unique MIME-types, always:<br />
::::: Changes: vorbis: still .vorbis would be better(change name to something that doesn't starts with a v, nor, xor or g)<br />
::::: This solves the problem with backwards compatability because .ogg isn't used. <br />
::::: <br />
::::: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/vorbis, speex: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/speex<br />
::::: (audio/ogg with everything on it is being used for .oga and that <br />
::::: stands for ogg audio is very consistent and easy to see)<br />
::::: It has to be registered anyway for RTP !!!! <br />
::::: (It wouldn't be such a big assigment now to do that, but over a year or two, <br />
::::: you can't go back anymore because of compatability!!!)<br />
:::::<br />
::::: And people think that vorbis is a video format because it starts with a v.<br />
::::: So they look around if their player supports vorbis video but they find out only audio is supported.<br />
::::: Mad about getting wrong information and quit ogg for an alternative mostly.<br />
::::: Please change the name or create a new format that is essentially vorbis with another name. <br />
::::: (And also add new metadata formats in to have a reason for people to update.)<br />
<br />
==text/cmml==<br />
text/cmml for CMML without container: the Codec mime types are to be used in Skeleton, can this mime type be applied to the CMML Ogg mapping? (It's not plain text in the way that Vorbis mapped into Ogg is exactly audio/vorbis.)<br />
<br />
== .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album (also separate pictures for each song)? Yes? Oh Boy, this is fantastic==<br />
<br />
Can multiple audio streams/files be packed to one oga? <br />
(I mean that there are seperatable flac/speex/vorbis files that can be played separately). <br />
If this is the case then oga is a very good candidate for <br />
ripping a cd with all of it's contents and metadata without loss.<br />
<br />
On a cd there is usually a picture. If you rip the cd to one of Xiph.org's free formats, <br />
it's lost because nothing supports this. <br />
Mayby oga could support this with some extra metadata and pictures in jpeg: <br />
a picture for the .oga and a picture for each number via metadata-system or something like that. <br />
This way someone can easily rip cd's and <br />
keep them in a consistent way on his or her computer. <br />
(One oga per cd, with the same picture as one the cd box, with all the numbers of one cd in oga file that can be played separatelly)<br />
<br />
:Yes, Ogg can carry multiple streams of audio, so you could backup an entire album in Ogg as FLAC or Vorbis and use the .oga extension. In this case alone, it is recommended to use .oga instead of .ogg because .ogg is for a single Vorbis stream file, while .oga requires a Skeleton stream which helps players recognize all the different songs in the file. Confused? One song, .ogg. Multiple songs in one file, .oga. Just make sure that the .oga file has a Skeleton stream. You can verify that with the ogginfo command line tool. And yes, you can also add a JPEG or PNG inside Ogg. I just don't know of any program that supports it, but theoretically it is possible. Just a heads up again, a song and an image are two streams of data, not just one, so again it would use .oga instead of .ogg. This also prevents breaking existing players that don't support embeded images.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:48, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: This sounds great and about streams of audio: <br />
Can I think of those streams also as separate audio files inside a multistream file? <br />
Because flac for example can also do up to eight streams.<br />
<br />
<br />
Have also a few other questions:<br />
- Is it possible to have an oga with an album in with a mix of songs in flac, vorbis and speexs?<br />
- Is it possible in oga to have a different picture for each song, stream ?<br />
(For when people make their own albums out of different albums and they want the picture of that album for each song.)<br />
<br />
:Again, yes. Theoretically, there is no limitation in what you can put in Ogg and the order you want it in, but while the format has no such limitations, this is not the case with the software out there. So, the short answer is, for the general public it will look as if Ogg cannot do that which you ask even though it can.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 06:58, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
:: Fantastic, please make sure this is included into the libraries of Xiph.org since applications can easily include them.<br />
<br />
:::To the extent that is possible, the libraries already support embeding of pictures in Ogg. The problem is the programs out there. If you care about this issue and you are either a developer or have money to hire one, you should patch free software programs like VLC to support it. Then hopefully the non-free programs like foobar2000 will follow the lead.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 12:48, 2 February 2008 (PST)</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:Ogg&diff=8414Talk:Ogg2008-02-14T17:23:49Z<p>Xpete: /* what about the '''.ogm''' format? */</p>
<hr />
<div>== what about the '''.ogm''' format? ==<br />
is it officially dead?<br />
<br />
:The .ogm format is a hack of ogg.<br />
::It will probably be replaced by .ogx and .ogv and .oga.<br />
<br />
== what about the '''.mka''' and '''.mkv''' ([http:://www.matroska.org matroska]) format? ==<br />
someone says that vorbis streams are smaller if contained in .mka files instead of .ogg files.</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:Ogg&diff=8413Talk:Ogg2008-02-14T17:22:41Z<p>Xpete: </p>
<hr />
<div>== what about the '''.ogm''' format? ==<br />
is it officially dead?<br />
<br />
== what about the '''.mka''' and '''.mkv''' ([http:://www.matroska.org matroska]) format? ==<br />
someone says that vorbis streams are smaller if contained in .mka files instead of .ogg files.</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:OggMNG&diff=8412Talk:OggMNG2008-02-14T17:18:16Z<p>Xpete: added to dicussion</p>
<hr />
<div>On January 29, 2008, under ''Implementation Notes'', Xpete wrote: <br />
:Because of OggSpots, an extra presentational format for presentation slide-like stuff isn't needed<br />
:In a presentation, you can also just pause the video for showing things.<br />
<br />
On August 9, 2005, under ''Further Speculation'', Sayoshant wrote:<br />
:Some people, including staff members of Mozilla, believe MNG should be replaced by APNG, a superset extension of PNG with multi-image support, but that should still be backwards-compatibility.<br />
:<br />
:I, non-Xiph member, wonder on other hand if OggMNG should become OggAPNG or actually keep the project as MNG.<br />
:: Keep it as mng because apng and mng are NOT THE SAME things:<br />
:: mng >>>http://www.libpng.org/pub/mng/<br />
:: apng >>>http://animatedpng.com/</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:MIME_Types_and_File_Extensions&diff=8333Talk:MIME Types and File Extensions2008-02-05T13:20:49Z<p>Xpete: /* ogg vorbis should never had a v as a first letter but now it's too late, Quick successor with a slightly changed name because of the new ogg framework and metadata system could break through easily</p>
<hr />
<div>== .flac - application/flac ==<br />
Why not audio/flac?<br />
<br />
Presumedly to distinguish it from "unencapsulated" flac. I'm not sure this makes sense though. Native flac is a fairly light container, and I suspect the current application/x-flac usage is just an analogy with ogg. OTOH, I don't think anyone's done flac over rtp, where this would be needed, but that is something that's interesting.<br />
<br />
:Edit: I have changed my opinion in this subject. Regardless, Josh agrees with audio/flac in case someone is willing to register it. application/flac was never registered.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:57, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::In a way application/flac to describe a stream which uses FLAC encapsulation is the same as using application/ogg to describe a stream using Ogg encapsulation. I don't really know if this is academic thinking and it's more developer-facing than end-user-facing. The question is what is going to be most consistent (and therefore make sense to someone trying to work it out). Since FLAC in Ogg is natively FLAC encapsulated it may make sense to use the same mime-type for native FLAC as the codec mime type to be used for FLAC in Ogg. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 07:26, 28 June 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== .spx - audio/ogg ==<br />
Why not audio/spx?<br />
To distinguish it from ogg vorbis.<br />
<br />
:audio/speex is only used for Speex RTP or in any other case of "Oggless" Speex. Speex in Ogg, which is a common sight, is audio/ogg just like every other audio-only Ogg file, be it Vorbis, FLAC, Ghost/CELT, MIDI, and even OggPCM.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 07:01, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: Then we still need it for RTP and in native container seems to me.<br />
:: Because of the RTP vorbis and speex should have a unique MIME type right?<br />
:: And also for native container for making correct differences.<br />
:: (One of the greatest mistakes of computer programming is identifying two different things as the same.)<br />
:: Because you're goanna have to register it, best use it as well.<br />
<br />
== ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" ==<br />
<br />
I can't accept that ".ogg" becomes Vorbis I only extension.<br />
Ogg is not a codec. It is the container of codecs.<br />
That change will be missleading people.<br />
<br />
".ogg" has been defined as "application/ogg" and already used as Theora+Vorbis.<br />
Redefining ".ogg" as Vorbis I only extension and changing MIME type to "audio/ogg" is not backward-compatible.<br />
Changing spec should be more carefully.<br />
If possible, should not change fixed spec. (I know becoming RFC does not mean fixed spec. But it is treated as fixed spec) --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 07:31, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:We understand your concern, but application/ogg isn't about audio, and people out there have wrongly associated .ogg with Vorbis only, making it harder for other codecs like Theora to succeed because of the file extension. They do not understand that Ogg is a container; they think Ogg is Vorbis. Although this proposal is somewhat radical and some people aren't 100% happy with it, it's for the best. video/ogg and audio/ogg will also be much useful now with the <video> and <audio> elements of HTML 5.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:04, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::".ogv" and ".oga" may be useful. I can accept this. But changing the definition of ".ogg" is really needed? I can't find the necessity of this. It breaks backward-compatibility. No one will be happy with this change... --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 13:56, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::We are not breaking backwards-comaptibility. That's why Vorbis and Speex will be allowed to use .ogg and .spx instead of .oga. The only thing that may break backwards-compatibility is deprecating application/ogg in favor od video/ogg and audio/ogg. That and Theora files, but since there are no Theora hardware players that we know of, existing Theora files may be renamed to .ogv easily, making compatibility with previous files a non-issue. Backwards-compatibility was seriously considered during the creation of this proposal. We are not breaking it.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:53, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ummmmm..... I think ".ogg" re-definition is not necessary. My best resolution is simply adding the new ext definitions to RFC:<br />
::::* ".ogg" is application/ogg (as RFC3534)<br />
::::* define new ext and MIME : ".ogx", ".oga", ".ogv", etc...<br />
::::* Use of new extensions is recommended.<br />
::::* Official tools are using new ext (except .ogg for Vorbis I?)<br />
::::Changing of ".ogg"'s MIME type is really necessary? --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 16:35, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::: Want also to see more consistent behaviour like changing name of vorbis into something like n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
::::: And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis <br />
::::: ogx is a very good way to overcome problems but be sure to let it have an internal version number for making changes later<br />
::::: Because of RTP and native containers codecs better have unique MIME-types:<br />
::::: Changes: vorbis: still .vorbis would be better(change name to something that doesn't starts with a v, nor, xor or g)<br />
::::: So there is no problem with backwards compatability if .ogg isn't used. <br />
::::: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/vorbis, speex: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/speex<br />
::::: (audio/ogg with everything on it is being used for .oga and that <br />
::::: stands for ogg audio is very consistent and easy to see)<br />
::::: <br />
::::: It has to be registered anyway for RTP !!!! <br />
::::: (It wouldn't be such a big assigment now to do that, but over a year or two, <br />
::::: you can't go back anymore because of compatability!!!)<br />
:::::<br />
::::: And people think that vorbis is a video format because it starts with a v.<br />
::::: So they look around if their player supports vorbis video but they find out only audio is supported.<br />
::::: Mad about getting wrong information and quit ogg for an alternative mostly.<br />
::::: Please change the name or create a new format that is essentially vorbis with another name. <br />
::::: (And also something extra to have a reason for people to update.)<br />
::::: (You're goanna have to because of the new ogg framework hahaha!!!!!!)<br />
::::: Or else you get conflict issues and broken compatability !!!<br />
<br />
==text/cmml==<br />
text/cmml for CMML without container: the Codec mime types are to be used in Skeleton, can this mime type be applied to the CMML Ogg mapping? (It's not plain text in the way that Vorbis mapped into Ogg is exactly audio/vorbis.)<br />
<br />
== .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album (also separate pictures for each song)? Yes? Oh Boy, this is fantastic==<br />
<br />
Can multiple audio streams/files be packed to one oga? <br />
(I mean that there are seperatable flac/speex/vorbis files that can be played separately). <br />
If this is the case then oga is a very good candidate for <br />
ripping a cd with all of it's contents and metadata without loss.<br />
<br />
On a cd there is usually a picture. If you rip the cd to one of Xiph.org's free formats, <br />
it's lost because nothing supports this. <br />
Mayby oga could support this with some extra metadata and pictures in jpeg: <br />
a picture for the .oga and a picture for each number via metadata-system or something like that. <br />
This way someone can easily rip cd's and <br />
keep them in a consistent way on his or her computer. <br />
(One oga per cd, with the same picture as one the cd box, with all the numbers of one cd in oga file that can be played separatelly)<br />
<br />
:Yes, Ogg can carry multiple streams of audio, so you could backup an entire album in Ogg as FLAC or Vorbis and use the .oga extension. In this case alone, it is recommended to use .oga instead of .ogg because .ogg is for a single Vorbis stream file, while .oga requires a Skeleton stream which helps players recognize all the different songs in the file. Confused? One song, .ogg. Multiple songs in one file, .oga. Just make sure that the .oga file has a Skeleton stream. You can verify that with the ogginfo command line tool. And yes, you can also add a JPEG or PNG inside Ogg. I just don't know of any program that supports it, but theoretically it is possible. Just a heads up again, a song and an image are two streams of data, not just one, so again it would use .oga instead of .ogg. This also prevents breaking existing players that don't support embeded images.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:48, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: This sounds great and about streams of audio: <br />
Can I think of those streams also as separate audio files inside a multistream file? <br />
Because flac for example can also do up to eight streams.<br />
<br />
<br />
Have also a few other questions:<br />
- Is it possible to have an oga with an album in with a mix of songs in flac, vorbis and speexs?<br />
- Is it possible in oga to have a different picture for each song, stream ?<br />
(For when people make their own albums out of different albums and they want the picture of that album for each song.)<br />
<br />
:Again, yes. Theoretically, there is no limitation in what you can put in Ogg and the order you want it in, but while the format has no such limitations, this is not the case with the software out there. So, the short answer is, for the general public it will look as if Ogg cannot do that which you ask even though it can.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 06:58, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
:: Fantastic, please make sure this is included into the libraries of Xiph.org since applications can easily include them.<br />
<br />
:::To the extent that is possible, the libraries already support embeding of pictures in Ogg. The problem is the programs out there. If you care about this issue and you are either a developer or have money to hire one, you should patch free software programs like VLC to support it. Then hopefully the non-free programs like foobar2000 will follow the lead.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 12:48, 2 February 2008 (PST)</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:MIME_Types_and_File_Extensions&diff=8332Talk:MIME Types and File Extensions2008-02-05T13:20:15Z<p>Xpete: /* ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" */</p>
<hr />
<div>== .flac - application/flac ==<br />
Why not audio/flac?<br />
<br />
Presumedly to distinguish it from "unencapsulated" flac. I'm not sure this makes sense though. Native flac is a fairly light container, and I suspect the current application/x-flac usage is just an analogy with ogg. OTOH, I don't think anyone's done flac over rtp, where this would be needed, but that is something that's interesting.<br />
<br />
:Edit: I have changed my opinion in this subject. Regardless, Josh agrees with audio/flac in case someone is willing to register it. application/flac was never registered.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:57, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::In a way application/flac to describe a stream which uses FLAC encapsulation is the same as using application/ogg to describe a stream using Ogg encapsulation. I don't really know if this is academic thinking and it's more developer-facing than end-user-facing. The question is what is going to be most consistent (and therefore make sense to someone trying to work it out). Since FLAC in Ogg is natively FLAC encapsulated it may make sense to use the same mime-type for native FLAC as the codec mime type to be used for FLAC in Ogg. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 07:26, 28 June 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== .spx - audio/ogg ==<br />
Why not audio/spx?<br />
To distinguish it from ogg vorbis.<br />
<br />
:audio/speex is only used for Speex RTP or in any other case of "Oggless" Speex. Speex in Ogg, which is a common sight, is audio/ogg just like every other audio-only Ogg file, be it Vorbis, FLAC, Ghost/CELT, MIDI, and even OggPCM.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 07:01, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: Then we still need it for RTP and in native container seems to me.<br />
:: Because of the RTP vorbis and speex should have a unique MIME type right?<br />
:: And also for native container for making correct differences.<br />
:: (One of the greatest mistakes of computer programming is identifying two different things as the same.)<br />
:: Because you're goanna have to register it, best use it as well.<br />
<br />
== ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" ==<br />
<br />
I can't accept that ".ogg" becomes Vorbis I only extension.<br />
Ogg is not a codec. It is the container of codecs.<br />
That change will be missleading people.<br />
<br />
".ogg" has been defined as "application/ogg" and already used as Theora+Vorbis.<br />
Redefining ".ogg" as Vorbis I only extension and changing MIME type to "audio/ogg" is not backward-compatible.<br />
Changing spec should be more carefully.<br />
If possible, should not change fixed spec. (I know becoming RFC does not mean fixed spec. But it is treated as fixed spec) --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 07:31, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:We understand your concern, but application/ogg isn't about audio, and people out there have wrongly associated .ogg with Vorbis only, making it harder for other codecs like Theora to succeed because of the file extension. They do not understand that Ogg is a container; they think Ogg is Vorbis. Although this proposal is somewhat radical and some people aren't 100% happy with it, it's for the best. video/ogg and audio/ogg will also be much useful now with the <video> and <audio> elements of HTML 5.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:04, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::".ogv" and ".oga" may be useful. I can accept this. But changing the definition of ".ogg" is really needed? I can't find the necessity of this. It breaks backward-compatibility. No one will be happy with this change... --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 13:56, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::We are not breaking backwards-comaptibility. That's why Vorbis and Speex will be allowed to use .ogg and .spx instead of .oga. The only thing that may break backwards-compatibility is deprecating application/ogg in favor od video/ogg and audio/ogg. That and Theora files, but since there are no Theora hardware players that we know of, existing Theora files may be renamed to .ogv easily, making compatibility with previous files a non-issue. Backwards-compatibility was seriously considered during the creation of this proposal. We are not breaking it.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:53, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ummmmm..... I think ".ogg" re-definition is not necessary. My best resolution is simply adding the new ext definitions to RFC:<br />
::::* ".ogg" is application/ogg (as RFC3534)<br />
::::* define new ext and MIME : ".ogx", ".oga", ".ogv", etc...<br />
::::* Use of new extensions is recommended.<br />
::::* Official tools are using new ext (except .ogg for Vorbis I?)<br />
::::Changing of ".ogg"'s MIME type is really necessary? --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 16:35, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::: Want also to see more consistent behaviour like changing name of vorbis into something like n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
::::: And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis <br />
::::: ogx is a very good way to overcome problems but be sure to let it have an internal version number for making changes later<br />
::::: Because of RTP and native containers codecs better have unique MIME-types:<br />
::::: Changes: vorbis: still .vorbis would be better(change name to something that doesn't starts with a v, nor, xor or g)<br />
::::: So there is no problem with backwards compatability if .ogg isn't used. <br />
::::: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/vorbis, speex: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/speex<br />
::::: (audio/ogg with everything on it is being used for .oga and that <br />
::::: stands for ogg audio is very consistent and easy to see)<br />
::::: <br />
::::: It has to be registered anyway for RTP !!!! <br />
::::: (It wouldn't be such a big assigment now to do that, but over a year or two, <br />
::::: you can't go back anymore because of compatability!!!)<br />
:::::<br />
::::: And people think that vorbis is a video format because it starts with a v.<br />
::::: So they look around if their player supports vorbis video but they find out only audio is supported.<br />
::::: Mad about getting wrong information and quit ogg for an alternative mostly.<br />
::::: Please change the name or create a new format that is essentially vorbis with another name. <br />
::::: (And also something extra to have a reason for people to update.)<br />
::::: (You're goanna have to because of the new ogg framework hahaha!!!!!!)<br />
::::: Or else you get conflict issues and broken compatability !!!<br />
<br />
==text/cmml==<br />
text/cmml for CMML without container: the Codec mime types are to be used in Skeleton, can this mime type be applied to the CMML Ogg mapping? (It's not plain text in the way that Vorbis mapped into Ogg is exactly audio/vorbis.)<br />
<br />
== .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album (also separate pictures for each song)? Yes? Oh Boy, this is fantastic==<br />
<br />
Can multiple audio streams/files be packed to one oga? <br />
(I mean that there are seperatable flac/speex/vorbis files that can be played separately). <br />
If this is the case then oga is a very good candidate for <br />
ripping a cd with all of it's contents and metadata without loss.<br />
<br />
On a cd there is usually a picture. If you rip the cd to one of Xiph.org's free formats, <br />
it's lost because nothing supports this. <br />
Mayby oga could support this with some extra metadata and pictures in jpeg: <br />
a picture for the .oga and a picture for each number via metadata-system or something like that. <br />
This way someone can easily rip cd's and <br />
keep them in a consistent way on his or her computer. <br />
(One oga per cd, with the same picture as one the cd box, with all the numbers of one cd in oga file that can be played separatelly)<br />
<br />
:Yes, Ogg can carry multiple streams of audio, so you could backup an entire album in Ogg as FLAC or Vorbis and use the .oga extension. In this case alone, it is recommended to use .oga instead of .ogg because .ogg is for a single Vorbis stream file, while .oga requires a Skeleton stream which helps players recognize all the different songs in the file. Confused? One song, .ogg. Multiple songs in one file, .oga. Just make sure that the .oga file has a Skeleton stream. You can verify that with the ogginfo command line tool. And yes, you can also add a JPEG or PNG inside Ogg. I just don't know of any program that supports it, but theoretically it is possible. Just a heads up again, a song and an image are two streams of data, not just one, so again it would use .oga instead of .ogg. This also prevents breaking existing players that don't support embeded images.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:48, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: This sounds great and about streams of audio: <br />
Can I think of those streams also as separate audio files inside a multistream file? <br />
Because flac for example can also do up to eight streams.<br />
<br />
<br />
Have also a few other questions:<br />
- Is it possible to have an oga with an album in with a mix of songs in flac, vorbis and speexs?<br />
- Is it possible in oga to have a different picture for each song, stream ?<br />
(For when people make their own albums out of different albums and they want the picture of that album for each song.)<br />
<br />
:Again, yes. Theoretically, there is no limitation in what you can put in Ogg and the order you want it in, but while the format has no such limitations, this is not the case with the software out there. So, the short answer is, for the general public it will look as if Ogg cannot do that which you ask even though it can.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 06:58, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
:: Fantastic, please make sure this is included into the libraries of Xiph.org since applications can easily include them.<br />
<br />
:::To the extent that is possible, the libraries already support embeding of pictures in Ogg. The problem is the programs out there. If you care about this issue and you are either a developer or have money to hire one, you should patch free software programs like VLC to support it. Then hopefully the non-free programs like foobar2000 will follow the lead.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 12:48, 2 February 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
== ogg vorbis should never had a v as a first letter but now it's too late, Quick successor with a slightly changed name because of the new ogg framework and metadata system could break through easily==<br />
<br />
Many people when they first hear the word vorbis think it's a video codec because of the v.<br />
(My brother thought also and he's like already 15 years old.)<br />
<br />
Mayby people don't store music in vorbis because they think it's for video.<br />
Then they look for software to do the job and can't find anything.<br />
They get mad and look for something else.<br />
<br />
Here is a very radical idea but it would make some things more clearly and prevent mistakes in the future.<br />
Make a NEW codec/file format that's actually vorbis but with another name like m/l/w-orbis. (You guys pick it out)<br />
(But no norbis wrongly typed=nor can cause crash in the wrong place in wrongly constructed software same for xor(bis) and not gorbis)<br />
There must still be an advantage of the new codec, format because otherwise users won't have a reason to update.<br />
<br />
(The name of course has to sound like vorbis.)<br />
(And mayby make ogg and vorbis and ?orbis more popular in the future.)<br />
<br />
And mime type is then audio/ m/l/w-orbis.<br />
(I'll assume MIME-type is needed because of RTP and native container.)</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:OggKate&diff=8330Talk:OggKate2008-02-04T17:41:01Z<p>Xpete: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Kate is going to have support for all languages in the world, right ? ==<br />
(This can be userfull to make a video where a user can choose the right subtitle language.)<br />
<br />
:OggKate supports Unicode (UTF-8), so yes. [[User:Martin.leese|Martin Leese]] 15:46, 29 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
::With the right fonts, I have a test stream that displays Japanese, Arabic, Chinese, as well as Latin characters. The only thing left open there is how to deal with languages like Arabic which are written right to left. The language in a stream is set in the header as a language/region tag, such as en_US, or just en. [[User:ogg.k.ogg.k]] Wed Jan 30 18:20:49 UTC 2008<br />
<br />
::Right to left now supported (in my local version of xine). Language directionality can be overridden for each data packet from the default given in the headers. [[User:ogg.k.ogg.k]] Thurs Jan 31 13:29 UTC 2008<br />
::: Be carefull to make sure you're using the <br />
:::latest ISO standard (the one with the biggest number) about languages. <br />
:::Because there are already a few so you could miss and use the wrong one. <br />
::: For the rest Kate looks so good ;)</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:Ghost&diff=8249Talk:Ghost2008-02-02T18:25:18Z<p>Xpete: /* Ghost is also a bad name !! */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Will this be a lossy or lossless codec or will it be able to do both? ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Ghost is also a bad name !! ==<br />
People might think it's for security because of Norton ghost and what about the file extension?<br />
.ghost is already used, please be a little bit more creative and unique<br />
A unique codecs deserves a name that rises it apart from a number of other things.<br />
<br />
Please add something that reveals that ghost is for audio like:<br />
Audioghost or Soundghost<br />
And also think of a good file extension and MIME-type right away.</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:MIME_Types_and_File_Extensions&diff=8248Talk:MIME Types and File Extensions2008-02-02T18:23:57Z<p>Xpete: /* ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" */</p>
<hr />
<div>== .flac - application/flac ==<br />
Why not audio/flac?<br />
<br />
Presumedly to distinguish it from "unencapsulated" flac. I'm not sure this makes sense though. Native flac is a fairly light container, and I suspect the current application/x-flac usage is just an analogy with ogg. OTOH, I don't think anyone's done flac over rtp, where this would be needed, but that is something that's interesting.<br />
<br />
:Edit: I have changed my opinion in this subject. Regardless, Josh agrees with audio/flac in case someone is willing to register it. application/flac was never registered.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:57, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::In a way application/flac to describe a stream which uses FLAC encapsulation is the same as using application/ogg to describe a stream using Ogg encapsulation. I don't really know if this is academic thinking and it's more developer-facing than end-user-facing. The question is what is going to be most consistent (and therefore make sense to someone trying to work it out). Since FLAC in Ogg is natively FLAC encapsulated it may make sense to use the same mime-type for native FLAC as the codec mime type to be used for FLAC in Ogg. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 07:26, 28 June 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== .spx - audio/ogg ==<br />
Why not audio/spx?<br />
To distinguish it from ogg vorbis.<br />
<br />
:audio/speex is only used for Speex RTP or in any other case of "Oggless" Speex. Speex in Ogg, which is a common sight, is audio/ogg just like every other audio-only Ogg file, be it Vorbis, FLAC, Ghost/CELT, MIDI, and even OggPCM.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 07:01, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: Then we still need it for RTP and in native container seems to me.<br />
:: Because of the RTP vorbis and speex should have a unique MIME type right?<br />
:: And also for native container for making correct differences.<br />
:: (One of the greatest mistakes of computer programming is identifying two different things as the same.)<br />
:: Because you're goanna have to register it, best use it as well.<br />
<br />
== ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" ==<br />
<br />
I can't accept that ".ogg" becomes Vorbis I only extension.<br />
Ogg is not a codec. It is the container of codecs.<br />
That change will be missleading people.<br />
<br />
".ogg" has been defined as "application/ogg" and already used as Theora+Vorbis.<br />
Redefining ".ogg" as Vorbis I only extension and changing MIME type to "audio/ogg" is not backward-compatible.<br />
Changing spec should be more carefully.<br />
If possible, should not change fixed spec. (I know becoming RFC does not mean fixed spec. But it is treated as fixed spec) --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 07:31, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:We understand your concern, but application/ogg isn't about audio, and people out there have wrongly associated .ogg with Vorbis only, making it harder for other codecs like Theora to succeed because of the file extension. They do not understand that Ogg is a container; they think Ogg is Vorbis. Although this proposal is somewhat radical and some people aren't 100% happy with it, it's for the best. video/ogg and audio/ogg will also be much useful now with the <video> and <audio> elements of HTML 5.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:04, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::".ogv" and ".oga" may be useful. I can accept this. But changing the definition of ".ogg" is really needed? I can't find the necessity of this. It breaks backward-compatibility. No one will be happy with this change... --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 13:56, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::We are not breaking backwards-comaptibility. That's why Vorbis and Speex will be allowed to use .ogg and .spx instead of .oga. The only thing that may break backwards-compatibility is deprecating application/ogg in favor od video/ogg and audio/ogg. That and Theora files, but since there are no Theora hardware players that we know of, existing Theora files may be renamed to .ogv easily, making compatibility with previous files a non-issue. Backwards-compatibility was seriously considered during the creation of this proposal. We are not breaking it.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:53, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ummmmm..... I think ".ogg" re-definition is not necessary. My best resolution is simply adding the new ext definitions to RFC:<br />
::::* ".ogg" is application/ogg (as RFC3534)<br />
::::* define new ext and MIME : ".ogx", ".oga", ".ogv", etc...<br />
::::* Use of new extensions is recommended.<br />
::::* Official tools are using new ext (except .ogg for Vorbis I?)<br />
::::Changing of ".ogg"'s MIME type is really necessary? --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 16:35, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::: Want also to see more consistent behaviour like changing name of vorbis into something like n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
::::: And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis <br />
::::: ogx is a very good way to overcome problems but be sure to let it have an internal version number for making changes later<br />
::::: Because of RTP and native containers codecs better have unique MIME-types:<br />
::::: Changes: vorbis: still .vorbis would be better(change name to something that doesn't starts with a v, nor, xor or g), <br />
::::: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/vorbis, speex: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/spx<br />
::::: (audio/ogg is being used for .oga and that is stands for ogg audio is very consistent and easy ::::: to see)<br />
::::: <br />
::::: It has to be registered anyway for RTP !!!! <br />
::::: (It wouldn't be such a big assigment now to do that, but over a year or two, <br />
::::: you can't go back anymore because of compatability!!!)<br />
:::::<br />
::::: And people think that vorbis is a video format because it starts with a v.<br />
::::: So they look around if their player supports vorbis video but they find out only audio is supported.<br />
::::: Mad about getting wrong information and quit ogg for an alternative mostly.<br />
::::: Please change the name or create a new format that is essentially vorbis with another name. <br />
::::: (And also something extra to have a reason for people to update.)<br />
::::: (You're goanna have to because of the new ogg framework hahaha!!!!!!)<br />
::::: Or else you get conflict issues and broken compatability !!!<br />
<br />
==text/cmml==<br />
text/cmml for CMML without container: the Codec mime types are to be used in Skeleton, can this mime type be applied to the CMML Ogg mapping? (It's not plain text in the way that Vorbis mapped into Ogg is exactly audio/vorbis.)<br />
<br />
== .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album (also separate pictures for each song)? Yes? Oh Boy, this is fantastic==<br />
<br />
Can multiple audio streams/files be packed to one oga? <br />
(I mean that there are seperatable flac/speex/vorbis files that can be played separately). <br />
If this is the case then oga is a very good candidate for <br />
ripping a cd with all of it's contents and metadata without loss.<br />
<br />
On a cd there is usually a picture. If you rip the cd to one of Xiph.org's free formats, <br />
it's lost because nothing supports this. <br />
Mayby oga could support this with some extra metadata and pictures in jpeg: <br />
a picture for the .oga and a picture for each number via metadata-system or something like that. <br />
This way someone can easily rip cd's and <br />
keep them in a consistent way on his or her computer. <br />
(One oga per cd, with the same picture as one the cd box, with all the numbers of one cd in oga file that can be played separatelly)<br />
<br />
:Yes, Ogg can carry multiple streams of audio, so you could backup an entire album in Ogg as FLAC or Vorbis and use the .oga extension. In this case alone, it is recommended to use .oga instead of .ogg because .ogg is for a single Vorbis stream file, while .oga requires a Skeleton stream which helps players recognize all the different songs in the file. Confused? One song, .ogg. Multiple songs in one file, .oga. Just make sure that the .oga file has a Skeleton stream. You can verify that with the ogginfo command line tool. And yes, you can also add a JPEG or PNG inside Ogg. I just don't know of any program that supports it, but theoretically it is possible. Just a heads up again, a song and an image are two streams of data, not just one, so again it would use .oga instead of .ogg. This also prevents breaking existing players that don't support embeded images.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:48, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: This sounds great and about streams of audio: <br />
Can I think of those streams also as separate audio files inside a multistream file? <br />
Because flac for example can also do up to eight streams.<br />
<br />
<br />
Have also a few other questions:<br />
- Is it possible to have an oga with an album in with a mix of songs in flac, vorbis and speexs?<br />
- Is it possible in oga to have a different picture for each song, stream ?<br />
(For when people make their own albums out of different albums and they want the picture of that album for each song.)<br />
<br />
:Again, yes. Theoretically, there is no limitation in what you can put in Ogg and the order you want it in, but while the format has no such limitations, this is not the case with the software out there. So, the short answer is, for the general public it will look as if Ogg cannot do that which you ask even though it can.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 06:58, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
:: Fantastic, please make sure this is included into the libraries of Xiph.org since applications can easily include them.<br />
<br />
== ogg vorbis should never had a v as a first letter but now it's too late, Quick successor with a slightly changed name because of the new ogg framework and metadata system could break through easily==<br />
<br />
Many people when they first hear the word vorbis think it's a video codec because of the v.<br />
(My brother thought also and he's like already 15 years old.)<br />
<br />
Mayby people don't store music in vorbis because they think it's for video.<br />
Then they look for software to do the job and can't find anything.<br />
They get mad and look for something else.<br />
<br />
Here is a very radical idea but it would make some things more clearly and prevent mistakes in the future.<br />
Make a NEW codec/file format that's actually vorbis but with another name like m/l/w-orbis. (You guys pick it out)<br />
(But no norbis wrongly typed=nor can cause crash in the wrong place in wrongly constructed software same for xor(bis) and not gorbis)<br />
There must still be an advantage of the new codec, format because otherwise users won't have a reason to update.<br />
<br />
(The name of course has to sound like vorbis.)<br />
(And mayby make ogg and vorbis and ?orbis more popular in the future.)<br />
<br />
And mime type is then audio/ m/l/w-orbis.<br />
(I'll assume MIME-type is needed because of RTP and native container.)</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:MIME_Types_and_File_Extensions&diff=8247Talk:MIME Types and File Extensions2008-02-02T18:22:53Z<p>Xpete: /* ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" */</p>
<hr />
<div>== .flac - application/flac ==<br />
Why not audio/flac?<br />
<br />
Presumedly to distinguish it from "unencapsulated" flac. I'm not sure this makes sense though. Native flac is a fairly light container, and I suspect the current application/x-flac usage is just an analogy with ogg. OTOH, I don't think anyone's done flac over rtp, where this would be needed, but that is something that's interesting.<br />
<br />
:Edit: I have changed my opinion in this subject. Regardless, Josh agrees with audio/flac in case someone is willing to register it. application/flac was never registered.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:57, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::In a way application/flac to describe a stream which uses FLAC encapsulation is the same as using application/ogg to describe a stream using Ogg encapsulation. I don't really know if this is academic thinking and it's more developer-facing than end-user-facing. The question is what is going to be most consistent (and therefore make sense to someone trying to work it out). Since FLAC in Ogg is natively FLAC encapsulated it may make sense to use the same mime-type for native FLAC as the codec mime type to be used for FLAC in Ogg. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 07:26, 28 June 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== .spx - audio/ogg ==<br />
Why not audio/spx?<br />
To distinguish it from ogg vorbis.<br />
<br />
:audio/speex is only used for Speex RTP or in any other case of "Oggless" Speex. Speex in Ogg, which is a common sight, is audio/ogg just like every other audio-only Ogg file, be it Vorbis, FLAC, Ghost/CELT, MIDI, and even OggPCM.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 07:01, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: Then we still need it for RTP and in native container seems to me.<br />
:: Because of the RTP vorbis and speex should have a unique MIME type right?<br />
:: And also for native container for making correct differences.<br />
:: (One of the greatest mistakes of computer programming is identifying two different things as the same.)<br />
:: Because you're goanna have to register it, best use it as well.<br />
<br />
== ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" ==<br />
<br />
I can't accept that ".ogg" becomes Vorbis I only extension.<br />
Ogg is not a codec. It is the container of codecs.<br />
That change will be missleading people.<br />
<br />
".ogg" has been defined as "application/ogg" and already used as Theora+Vorbis.<br />
Redefining ".ogg" as Vorbis I only extension and changing MIME type to "audio/ogg" is not backward-compatible.<br />
Changing spec should be more carefully.<br />
If possible, should not change fixed spec. (I know becoming RFC does not mean fixed spec. But it is treated as fixed spec) --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 07:31, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:We understand your concern, but application/ogg isn't about audio, and people out there have wrongly associated .ogg with Vorbis only, making it harder for other codecs like Theora to succeed because of the file extension. They do not understand that Ogg is a container; they think Ogg is Vorbis. Although this proposal is somewhat radical and some people aren't 100% happy with it, it's for the best. video/ogg and audio/ogg will also be much useful now with the <video> and <audio> elements of HTML 5.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:04, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::".ogv" and ".oga" may be useful. I can accept this. But changing the definition of ".ogg" is really needed? I can't find the necessity of this. It breaks backward-compatibility. No one will be happy with this change... --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 13:56, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::We are not breaking backwards-comaptibility. That's why Vorbis and Speex will be allowed to use .ogg and .spx instead of .oga. The only thing that may break backwards-compatibility is deprecating application/ogg in favor od video/ogg and audio/ogg. That and Theora files, but since there are no Theora hardware players that we know of, existing Theora files may be renamed to .ogv easily, making compatibility with previous files a non-issue. Backwards-compatibility was seriously considered during the creation of this proposal. We are not breaking it.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:53, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ummmmm..... I think ".ogg" re-definition is not necessary. My best resolution is simply adding the new ext definitions to RFC:<br />
::::* ".ogg" is application/ogg (as RFC3534)<br />
::::* define new ext and MIME : ".ogx", ".oga", ".ogv", etc...<br />
::::* Use of new extensions is recommended.<br />
::::* Official tools are using new ext (except .ogg for Vorbis I?)<br />
::::Changing of ".ogg"'s MIME type is really necessary? --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 16:35, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::: Want also to see more consistent behaviour like changing name of vorbis into something like n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
::::: And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis <br />
::::: ogx is very good<br />
::::: Because of RTP and native containers codecs better have unique MIME-types:<br />
::::: Changes: vorbis: still .vorbis would be better(change name to something that doesn't starts with a v, nor, xor or g), <br />
::::: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/vorbis, speex: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/spx<br />
::::: (audio/ogg is being used for .oga and that is stands for ogg audio is very consistent and easy ::::: to see)<br />
::::: <br />
::::: It has to be registered anyway for RTP !!!! <br />
::::: (It wouldn't be such a big assigment now to do that, but over a year or two, <br />
::::: you can't go back anymore because of compatability!!!)<br />
:::::<br />
::::: And people think that vorbis is a video format because it starts with a v.<br />
::::: So they look around if their player supports vorbis video but they find out only audio is supported.<br />
::::: Mad about getting wrong information and quit ogg for an alternative mostly.<br />
::::: Please change the name or create a new format that is essentially vorbis with another name. <br />
::::: (And also something extra to have a reason for people to update.)<br />
::::: (You're goanna have to because of the new ogg framework hahaha!!!!!!)<br />
::::: Or else you get conflict issues and broken compatability !!!<br />
<br />
==text/cmml==<br />
text/cmml for CMML without container: the Codec mime types are to be used in Skeleton, can this mime type be applied to the CMML Ogg mapping? (It's not plain text in the way that Vorbis mapped into Ogg is exactly audio/vorbis.)<br />
<br />
== .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album (also separate pictures for each song)? Yes? Oh Boy, this is fantastic==<br />
<br />
Can multiple audio streams/files be packed to one oga? <br />
(I mean that there are seperatable flac/speex/vorbis files that can be played separately). <br />
If this is the case then oga is a very good candidate for <br />
ripping a cd with all of it's contents and metadata without loss.<br />
<br />
On a cd there is usually a picture. If you rip the cd to one of Xiph.org's free formats, <br />
it's lost because nothing supports this. <br />
Mayby oga could support this with some extra metadata and pictures in jpeg: <br />
a picture for the .oga and a picture for each number via metadata-system or something like that. <br />
This way someone can easily rip cd's and <br />
keep them in a consistent way on his or her computer. <br />
(One oga per cd, with the same picture as one the cd box, with all the numbers of one cd in oga file that can be played separatelly)<br />
<br />
:Yes, Ogg can carry multiple streams of audio, so you could backup an entire album in Ogg as FLAC or Vorbis and use the .oga extension. In this case alone, it is recommended to use .oga instead of .ogg because .ogg is for a single Vorbis stream file, while .oga requires a Skeleton stream which helps players recognize all the different songs in the file. Confused? One song, .ogg. Multiple songs in one file, .oga. Just make sure that the .oga file has a Skeleton stream. You can verify that with the ogginfo command line tool. And yes, you can also add a JPEG or PNG inside Ogg. I just don't know of any program that supports it, but theoretically it is possible. Just a heads up again, a song and an image are two streams of data, not just one, so again it would use .oga instead of .ogg. This also prevents breaking existing players that don't support embeded images.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:48, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: This sounds great and about streams of audio: <br />
Can I think of those streams also as separate audio files inside a multistream file? <br />
Because flac for example can also do up to eight streams.<br />
<br />
<br />
Have also a few other questions:<br />
- Is it possible to have an oga with an album in with a mix of songs in flac, vorbis and speexs?<br />
- Is it possible in oga to have a different picture for each song, stream ?<br />
(For when people make their own albums out of different albums and they want the picture of that album for each song.)<br />
<br />
:Again, yes. Theoretically, there is no limitation in what you can put in Ogg and the order you want it in, but while the format has no such limitations, this is not the case with the software out there. So, the short answer is, for the general public it will look as if Ogg cannot do that which you ask even though it can.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 06:58, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
:: Fantastic, please make sure this is included into the libraries of Xiph.org since applications can easily include them.<br />
<br />
== ogg vorbis should never had a v as a first letter but now it's too late, Quick successor with a slightly changed name because of the new ogg framework and metadata system could break through easily==<br />
<br />
Many people when they first hear the word vorbis think it's a video codec because of the v.<br />
(My brother thought also and he's like already 15 years old.)<br />
<br />
Mayby people don't store music in vorbis because they think it's for video.<br />
Then they look for software to do the job and can't find anything.<br />
They get mad and look for something else.<br />
<br />
Here is a very radical idea but it would make some things more clearly and prevent mistakes in the future.<br />
Make a NEW codec/file format that's actually vorbis but with another name like m/l/w-orbis. (You guys pick it out)<br />
(But no norbis wrongly typed=nor can cause crash in the wrong place in wrongly constructed software same for xor(bis) and not gorbis)<br />
There must still be an advantage of the new codec, format because otherwise users won't have a reason to update.<br />
<br />
(The name of course has to sound like vorbis.)<br />
(And mayby make ogg and vorbis and ?orbis more popular in the future.)<br />
<br />
And mime type is then audio/ m/l/w-orbis.<br />
(I'll assume MIME-type is needed because of RTP and native container.)</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&diff=8246Talk:Main Page2008-02-02T18:20:07Z<p>Xpete: </p>
<hr />
<div>According to [[Special:Popularpages]], the various pages in the Demonstration section are the most visited parts of the wiki, so I moved that section to the top of the main page. --[[User:Andrel|Andrel]] 09:19, 26 April 2006 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Work in Progress ==<br />
<br />
It's not clear on first view (to me at least) that<br />
[[Main Page#Work in Progress]] is a link to<br />
[[Work In Progress]] (as none of the other section headings<br />
are). Possibly it should be a normal heading with the link<br />
in a short text below (à la [[Main Page#Other software]]).<br />
<br />
[[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 05:22, 1 February 2006 (PST)<br />
<br />
You are free to fix that. It's a wiki after all -- [[User:Jmspeex|Jmspeex]] 19:22, 1 February 2006 (PST)<br />
<br />
Done (just didn't want to trample all over the front page) -- [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 04:33, 2 February 2006 (PST)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Lock This Page ==<br />
<br />
On all/most other wikis the Main Page is locked so only admins can edit it. Due to the amount of vandalism, I think the [[Main Page]] should be locked and all changes discussed here. --[[User:SonicChao|SonicChao]] 05:11, 27 August 2006 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Paranoia / cdparanoia ==<br />
<br />
Why is there no listing under software of paranoia or cdparanoia? Also, there is no listing on the main xiph.org page. Is that software acknowlegded? --[[User:WhiteDragon|WhiteDragon]] 19:52, 9 September 2006 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Suggestion :-O ==<br />
First I want to congratulate you on the wonderful work being done. Thank you very much :-)<br />
Please allow anonymous edits (like wikipedia does) b'caus i'm too lazy to login :-)<br />
<br />
:I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the ton of hidden links I just culled has nothing to do with you... I can't speak for the people running Xiph but requiring a login reduces some of the flood of spam that shows up here, and Wikipedia has many more resources available to deal with it than this wiki does. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 06:06, 24 November 2006 (PST)<br />
<br />
== Proposal for a developer section ==<br />
<br />
As more developers start to "get it" about how ultra cool Ogg / Vorbis / Theora / etc is, wouldn't it be great to have a wiki section devoted to helping these budding programmers along? eg: i've written some nice code i'd be happy to share. Could contain a programming FAQ, how-to's, and real code. Thoughts? [[User:Davec|Davec]] 13:44, 6 December 2006 (PST)<br />
<br />
== Why CamelCase? ==<br />
<br />
MediaWiki supports free links, why are most page titles in the CamelCase format? - [[User:Sikon|Sikon]] 05:34, 27 February 2007 (PST)<br />
:CamelCase? I don't see what you mean. If you think something's wrong, you may go ahead and change it. That's what wikis are for.--[[User:Saoshyant|Saoshyant]] 05:37, 27 February 2007 (PST)<br />
:[[WhatHappened|Historical reasons]]. The original wiki used software that only supported [http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?CamelCase CamelCase]. For new pages it is fine to use free links. I suggest not renaming pages, as many of them have good search ranking. [[User:Andrel|Andrel]] 07:03, 27 February 2007 (PST)<br />
I see now. And thanks for the WhatHappened link, Andrel. I managed to recover two pages so far from web archive. I wonder if I'll savage it further.--[[User:Saoshyant|Saoshyant]] 08:28, 27 February 2007 (PST)<br />
<br />
== ICECast2 vs vBulletin ==<br />
<br />
Hi there,<br />
Fisrt let me thank you all the great work and the self performance over the ICECast streaming server<br />
<br />
I also Wonder if anyone had included ICECast directly into a vBulletin board having it worked from there on ..meaning enbable to use same username,permission and prefference from the database itself running on MySQL 5 having as if setting permission on for a usergroupe from there to enable them streaming out on your ICECast server and others can apply and yet just participate into the main forum itself<br />
<br />
I do have both running-up over my dedicated server now meanwhile if any would want to help me out creating like this hack or template am willing to give them all access for working over it <br />
can YOU imagine how friendly and powerful that ICECast would mean then<br />
<br />
hey give me a shout if willing to try it<br />
<br />
admin@gysmo.net<br />
<br />
== News ==<br />
<br />
Hi,<br />
<br />
I would really strongly suggest adding this to your news items... Someone has made a graphical interface for ffmpeg2theora at http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Video/Other-VIDEO-Tools/GFrontEnd-for-ffmpeg2theora.shtml<br />
<br />
I don't know the technical difficulties of building such a tool, but regardless, the ability for a common Windows user like myself to be able to just easily convert a proprietary file format to Ogg-Theora is really cool... I tested it out on the sample WMV file that came with this laptop, and the converted file worked great in Cortado... Of course, news about programs that allow one to record directly to Ogg-Theora would be even better, but this is still very important, imo... [[User:Brettz9|Brettz9]] 20:56, 4 July 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== .NET :-( ==<br />
<br />
> I would really strongly suggest adding this to your news items<br />
<br />
Check it out: > Requirements: .NET Framework 2.0<br />
<br />
Also, with 1.5 MiB size it's bigger than FFMPEG2THEORA itself (1.3 MiB after recompressing with UPX 3.0 --ultra-brute) - not that VERY good IMHO.<br />
<br />
: Sorry, do you mean MB as in Megabytes? That's a drop in the bucket of most hard drives nowadays, no? And .NET was already on my system for something I had downloaded earlier (not sure what, but maybe others may have it already too). My interest in seeing it announced is not how well it is implemented--if there are better alternatives let them be known--but that such a tool exists and it works (at least if you get the requirements).<br />
<br />
== MiB ||| .NET ==<br />
<br />
> Sorry, do you mean MB as in Megabytes?<br />
<br />
NO. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_prefix]]<br />
<br />
> And .NET was already on my system for something I had downloaded earlier (not sure what, but maybe others may have it already too)<br />
<br />
I don't have .NET and don't like it :-( Finally, the important thing is the FFMPEG2THEOA core and it works perfectly for me without .NET ;-)<br />
<br />
== Link to Games in Demonstrations Section? ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't there be a link to [[Games_that_use_Theora]] in the section with other demonstrations? Maybe there's not enough games listed on the page to warrant it?<br />
--[[User:Sim9|Sim9]] 11:47, 27 October 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:Yes. There's only two games listed right now. I'm pretty sure there's more out there. Sim9, can you help us listing more games?--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 11:56, 28 October 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::I'm sure you're right, there ''has'' to be more than two. Theora (and Vorbis) is now by default included in the Torque game engine, so there must be a lot of games using it by now. I just polled the Torque community to see if they know of any to help us fill up the list with some successful integrations! --[[User:Sim9|Sim9]] 19:02, 29 October 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Add xvid it's opensource ==<br />
Please add xvid to choosable video format in ogv and others.<br />
It's an open source, mature codec and doesn't have encoder problems theora currently has.<br />
Embedding it makes possible to show off ogv files with a codec that shows the tru power of ogv.<br />
<br />
Please make it possible to put this in, so .ogv can be used immediatelly with xvid and vorbis/speex/flac to create a mature and temporary solution until theora 1.0 hits the digital streets.<br />
Then users can just batch convert it with their applications whenever they feel/want to do it.<br />
(When they think theora is ready.)<br />
Could someone please look into this and tell me if this is possible and/or will be integrated?</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:Ghost&diff=8239Talk:Ghost2008-01-31T18:33:43Z<p>Xpete: added question, subject</p>
<hr />
<div>== Will this be a lossy or lossless codec or will it be able to do both? ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Ghost is also a bad name !! ==<br />
People might think it's for security because of Norton ghost and what about the file extension?<br />
.ghost is already used, please be a little bit more creative and unique<br />
A unique codecs deserves a name that rises it apart from a number of other things.</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=OggMNG&diff=8220OggMNG2008-01-29T18:01:40Z<p>Xpete: /* Implementation Notes */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Motivation ==<br />
<br />
The [http://libpng.org/pub/mng/ MNG] animation format grew out of the more successful PNG project as a way to provide animation support to compete with animated gif on the web. It basically allows encoding of both png and jpeg images and then construction of frames for display through alpha composition of those images and previously constructed frame data, including offsets and subimages. There is some crude scaling support, mostly as a way to implement gradients, but no general scale and rotation support. There is a delta-png mode for encoding minor frame-to-frame changes.<br />
<br />
There are also some simpler profiles that are just a sequence of full-frame images at a constant framerate.<br />
<br />
We are interested in an Ogg encapsulation of MNG for a number of reasons. The simplest is that MNG is an excellent format for 'traditional' cel-style animation, especially with fixed background plates, but within itself provides no audio support. Multiplexing such an animation with a Vorbis audio track in Ogg makes an obviously complete format. One could also put vorbis data into the MNG format as well of course "VHDR, VDAT, ..., VEND" but we have other purposes in mind.<br />
<br />
Although most efficient in compressing animation, MNG's support for both high-quality PNG lossless compression and subsumption of mjpeg make it a good source format for working with video in the Ogg framework. Combined with FLAC audio we have a good mastering format, and something that can be piped to encoders in a single stream.<br />
<br />
Finally, we want to support 'slideshow' tracks and graphic overlays over video in Ogg Theora. So one can do DVD-Video style graphic subtitles if you want precise control over the appearance (only with alpha blending so they look much better) or even complicated graphical annotations of video, like the VH1 "Pop Up Video" series. On the other side, one can do a series of slides with music or commentary, for example, a webcast of a conference presentation can include both video of the speaker and full-resolution images of the slides as they are presented, a much better solution than the current practice of cutting periodically to an illegible version in the video feed itself.<br />
<br />
== Specification ==<br />
<br />
Native [http://libpng.org/pub/mng/spec/ MNG] is a chunk-based file format. Each coded element (header, compressed images data, control information, etc.) is wrapped in a 'chunk' structure consisting of a 4-byte data length, a 4-byte type field, the actual data, and a 4-byte CRC. These chunks are simply contatentated to form the MNG bytestream. There are some ordering rules for the chunks, and an initial 8 byte magic sequence for recognition.<br />
<br />
The most straightforward encapsulation is to make an Ogg packet of each chunk, and then apply some familiar conventions for pagination to assist with streaming and seekability. We complicate this by including only the chunk type and data fields, and *not* the length and checksum which are redudant in Ogg. This increases complexity, but the bitrate savings are valuable in some cases. libmng (v1.0.8 and later) has special support for this. Granulepos would be the presentation time of the mng frame (in "ticks" as defined in the MHDR chunk) in variable framerate schemes, or the frame count in fixed-framerate streams, analogous to the treatment in MNG itself.<br />
<br />
The beginning-of-stream packet thus consists on the 8 byte MNG file magic followed by the MHDR chunk type and data. This satisfies the design requirements of having the initial packet provide both codec identification and relevent information about the stream, such as the granulepos scheme. This must appear on a page by itself as usual. All other packets consist of individual chunk type+body as described above. The end-of-stream packet will be the MEND chunk (which has no body and so consists of only the 4 byte type) and need not be on a page by itself, nor must that page appear at the end of a grouped Ogg segment.<br />
<br />
For the sake of streaming, complex MNG streams should divide their referenced data into a section at the beginning of the logical stream, or associated within some trivial time with the actual display, so seeking works without having to search beyond the beginning of the stream for referenced objects, as is already required by vorbis and theora. For simple sequence-of-frames data, things are more straightforward of course. Likewise, if there is a tEXt (or zTXt or iTXt) chunk with metadata describing the whole stream, it should appear at the beginning of the stream after the MHDR but before any image data.<br />
<br />
Since the still image formats PNG or JNG (png-style file format encapsulating jpeg image data with an optional alpha mask) are also by specification valid MNG files, we make the same extension to allow their encapsulation in Ogg, e.g. for album art. In that case the same stripped chunk to packet mapping is used, with the beginning-of-stream packet being the 8 byte PNG or JNG signature followed by the IHDR or JHDR chunk type and body, respectively. Encoders should set the granulepos of any pages containing still image data to 0. Decoders should ignore the granulepos and display the still image in whatever association with the other data it deems appropriate.<br />
<br />
== Speculation ==<br />
<br />
There are a couple of undecided issues that most likely need feedback from implementation.<br />
<br />
MNG can do variable frame rate streams, but each frame is marked with the delay until the next frame, which does not work well with Ogg's stream-oriented design. There have been two proposals to deal with this. A 'SHOW' chunk (empty) can be periodically repeated to refresh the previous frame. This is tedious but fairly low overhead, and results in a MNG stream that would play back identically outside the Ogg wrapper. Alternatively, the Ogg page granulepos could be used to indicate presentation time, overriding the internal MNG timing. This is not without precedent since MNG defines a framing rate of 'zero' as a special value where advance is triggered by some external event (3d volume slices, manual slideshow advance, and so on). Possibly both could be implemented with the Ogg granulepos overriding only when the MHDR framing rate is 0.<br />
<br />
We have two uses of MNG in Ogg that need to be distinguished. The MNG stream can be a separate 'video' stream all on its own, e.g. presentation slides that should be displayed in parallel with the other streams, and as an overlay on another video stream. This could be done with heuristics (an overlay must be transparent, and match the video in frame dimensions), conventions (a tEXt chuck could include a "ROLE:Overlay" definition, or through a separate metastream header.<br />
<br />
Conrad suggested a design where processing instructions could in included in the Fishbone metadata packet, but Ralph thinks this needs some refinement.<br />
<br />
We recommend the heuristic approach for now.<br />
<br />
== Further Speculation ==<br />
<br />
Some people, including staff members of Mozilla, believe MNG should be replaced by APNG, a superset extension of PNG with multi-image support, but that should still be backwards-compatibilite with old PNG agents.<br />
<br />
I, a non-Xiph member, wonder on other hand if OggMNG should become OggAPNG or actually keep the project as MNG.<br />
<br />
See also [[OggSpots]].<br />
<br />
== Implementation Notes ==<br />
<br />
For the presentation slides use case, the streaming server will want to cache the current frame and send it on connect to new listeners. This is a new requirement over just caching the initial headers that are required by the Vorbis and Theora codecs.<br />
:Because of oggSPOT's an extra presentational format for presentation slide like stuff isn't needed in :MNG and would like that MNG stays MNG anddoesn't changes to APNG<br />
:In a presentation, you can also just pause the video for showing things.</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=OggMNG&diff=8219OggMNG2008-01-29T18:00:49Z<p>Xpete: /* Implementation Notes */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Motivation ==<br />
<br />
The [http://libpng.org/pub/mng/ MNG] animation format grew out of the more successful PNG project as a way to provide animation support to compete with animated gif on the web. It basically allows encoding of both png and jpeg images and then construction of frames for display through alpha composition of those images and previously constructed frame data, including offsets and subimages. There is some crude scaling support, mostly as a way to implement gradients, but no general scale and rotation support. There is a delta-png mode for encoding minor frame-to-frame changes.<br />
<br />
There are also some simpler profiles that are just a sequence of full-frame images at a constant framerate.<br />
<br />
We are interested in an Ogg encapsulation of MNG for a number of reasons. The simplest is that MNG is an excellent format for 'traditional' cel-style animation, especially with fixed background plates, but within itself provides no audio support. Multiplexing such an animation with a Vorbis audio track in Ogg makes an obviously complete format. One could also put vorbis data into the MNG format as well of course "VHDR, VDAT, ..., VEND" but we have other purposes in mind.<br />
<br />
Although most efficient in compressing animation, MNG's support for both high-quality PNG lossless compression and subsumption of mjpeg make it a good source format for working with video in the Ogg framework. Combined with FLAC audio we have a good mastering format, and something that can be piped to encoders in a single stream.<br />
<br />
Finally, we want to support 'slideshow' tracks and graphic overlays over video in Ogg Theora. So one can do DVD-Video style graphic subtitles if you want precise control over the appearance (only with alpha blending so they look much better) or even complicated graphical annotations of video, like the VH1 "Pop Up Video" series. On the other side, one can do a series of slides with music or commentary, for example, a webcast of a conference presentation can include both video of the speaker and full-resolution images of the slides as they are presented, a much better solution than the current practice of cutting periodically to an illegible version in the video feed itself.<br />
<br />
== Specification ==<br />
<br />
Native [http://libpng.org/pub/mng/spec/ MNG] is a chunk-based file format. Each coded element (header, compressed images data, control information, etc.) is wrapped in a 'chunk' structure consisting of a 4-byte data length, a 4-byte type field, the actual data, and a 4-byte CRC. These chunks are simply contatentated to form the MNG bytestream. There are some ordering rules for the chunks, and an initial 8 byte magic sequence for recognition.<br />
<br />
The most straightforward encapsulation is to make an Ogg packet of each chunk, and then apply some familiar conventions for pagination to assist with streaming and seekability. We complicate this by including only the chunk type and data fields, and *not* the length and checksum which are redudant in Ogg. This increases complexity, but the bitrate savings are valuable in some cases. libmng (v1.0.8 and later) has special support for this. Granulepos would be the presentation time of the mng frame (in "ticks" as defined in the MHDR chunk) in variable framerate schemes, or the frame count in fixed-framerate streams, analogous to the treatment in MNG itself.<br />
<br />
The beginning-of-stream packet thus consists on the 8 byte MNG file magic followed by the MHDR chunk type and data. This satisfies the design requirements of having the initial packet provide both codec identification and relevent information about the stream, such as the granulepos scheme. This must appear on a page by itself as usual. All other packets consist of individual chunk type+body as described above. The end-of-stream packet will be the MEND chunk (which has no body and so consists of only the 4 byte type) and need not be on a page by itself, nor must that page appear at the end of a grouped Ogg segment.<br />
<br />
For the sake of streaming, complex MNG streams should divide their referenced data into a section at the beginning of the logical stream, or associated within some trivial time with the actual display, so seeking works without having to search beyond the beginning of the stream for referenced objects, as is already required by vorbis and theora. For simple sequence-of-frames data, things are more straightforward of course. Likewise, if there is a tEXt (or zTXt or iTXt) chunk with metadata describing the whole stream, it should appear at the beginning of the stream after the MHDR but before any image data.<br />
<br />
Since the still image formats PNG or JNG (png-style file format encapsulating jpeg image data with an optional alpha mask) are also by specification valid MNG files, we make the same extension to allow their encapsulation in Ogg, e.g. for album art. In that case the same stripped chunk to packet mapping is used, with the beginning-of-stream packet being the 8 byte PNG or JNG signature followed by the IHDR or JHDR chunk type and body, respectively. Encoders should set the granulepos of any pages containing still image data to 0. Decoders should ignore the granulepos and display the still image in whatever association with the other data it deems appropriate.<br />
<br />
== Speculation ==<br />
<br />
There are a couple of undecided issues that most likely need feedback from implementation.<br />
<br />
MNG can do variable frame rate streams, but each frame is marked with the delay until the next frame, which does not work well with Ogg's stream-oriented design. There have been two proposals to deal with this. A 'SHOW' chunk (empty) can be periodically repeated to refresh the previous frame. This is tedious but fairly low overhead, and results in a MNG stream that would play back identically outside the Ogg wrapper. Alternatively, the Ogg page granulepos could be used to indicate presentation time, overriding the internal MNG timing. This is not without precedent since MNG defines a framing rate of 'zero' as a special value where advance is triggered by some external event (3d volume slices, manual slideshow advance, and so on). Possibly both could be implemented with the Ogg granulepos overriding only when the MHDR framing rate is 0.<br />
<br />
We have two uses of MNG in Ogg that need to be distinguished. The MNG stream can be a separate 'video' stream all on its own, e.g. presentation slides that should be displayed in parallel with the other streams, and as an overlay on another video stream. This could be done with heuristics (an overlay must be transparent, and match the video in frame dimensions), conventions (a tEXt chuck could include a "ROLE:Overlay" definition, or through a separate metastream header.<br />
<br />
Conrad suggested a design where processing instructions could in included in the Fishbone metadata packet, but Ralph thinks this needs some refinement.<br />
<br />
We recommend the heuristic approach for now.<br />
<br />
== Further Speculation ==<br />
<br />
Some people, including staff members of Mozilla, believe MNG should be replaced by APNG, a superset extension of PNG with multi-image support, but that should still be backwards-compatibilite with old PNG agents.<br />
<br />
I, a non-Xiph member, wonder on other hand if OggMNG should become OggAPNG or actually keep the project as MNG.<br />
<br />
See also [[OggSpots]].<br />
<br />
== Implementation Notes ==<br />
<br />
For the presentation slides use case, the streaming server will want to cache the current frame and send it on connect to new listeners. This is a new requirement over just caching the initial headers that are required by the Vorbis and Theora codecs.<br />
:oggSPOT's and presentation slide like stuff isn't needed in MNG and would like that MNG stays MNG anddoesn't changes to APNG</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:OggKate&diff=8218Talk:OggKate2008-01-29T17:39:48Z<p>Xpete: /* Kate is going to have support for all languages right ? */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Kate is going to have support for all languages in the world, right ? ==<br />
(This can be userfull to make a video where a user can choose the right subtitle language.)</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:OggKate&diff=8217Talk:OggKate2008-01-29T17:39:30Z<p>Xpete: added question, subject</p>
<hr />
<div>== Kate is going to have support for all languages right ? ==<br />
(This can be userfull to make a video where a user can choose the right subtitle language.)</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:Ghost&diff=8216Talk:Ghost2008-01-29T17:33:22Z<p>Xpete: added question, subject</p>
<hr />
<div>== Will this be a lossy or lossless codec or will it be able to do both? ==</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:Metadata&diff=8215Talk:Metadata2008-01-29T17:26:11Z<p>Xpete: /* MDMF (now renamed M3F) replacing Vorbiscomments */</p>
<hr />
<div>== IEEE Learning Object Metadata ==<br />
The proposed solution is RDF + Dublin Core. Has anybody looked into supporting IEEE LOM, the Learning Object Metadata standard that I believe can incorporate Dublin Core? This is being adopted by key players in the e-learning world (IMS Global Learning, and SCORM), and would be valuable for the applications I am interested in.<br />
<br />
:Fred Kintanar<br />
:Cebu City, Philippines<br />
<br />
Having just looked at the [http://ltsc.ieee.org/wg12/ IEEE LOM page], I see they<br />
have XML and RDF bindings defined. The current view seems to be that you package<br />
a RDF or RDF/XML description of the content into the Ogg stream, with Dublin<br />
Core being a minimum feature set (Dublin Core certainly doesn't provide everything<br />
one might want). Handlers would most likely ignore or "dumb-down" relations they<br />
don't understand. In that case this would certainly work, but at the moment there<br />
is no clear plan (details like references between and into logical streams haven't<br />
really been considered as far as I can tell).<br />
<br />
What you want to do may already be possible with [http://ltsc.ieee.org/wg12/ Annodex];<br />
try their [http://lists.annodex.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ mailing lists],<br />
or the [http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/ogg-dev Ogg-dev] mailing list.<br />
<br />
:[[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 05:48, 30 January 2006 (PST)<br />
<br />
== MDMF (now renamed M3F) replacing Vorbiscomments ==<br />
<br />
The article read: <br />
<blockquote><br />
"The format [MDMF] will possibly replace Vorbis comments altogether."<br />
</blockquote><br />
<br />
To which Imalone responded:<br />
:This seems unlikely, not least because Vorbis comments are much simpler to implement and interpret. Current consensus is that this will be supplementary or take precedence.--[[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 06:21, 17 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::As I understand it, the purpose of MDMF is to replace Vorbiscomments for the use of ''structured'' metadata, allowing Vorbiscomments to revert to its orginally intended use of "short, text comments ... much like someone jotting a quick note on the bottom of a CDR." I will modify the article to say this. The Vorbis docs even state "arbitrary metadata belongs in a separate logical bitstream (usually an XML stream type) that provides greater structure and machine parseability". [[User:Martin.leese|Martin Leese]] 12:01, 18 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
:::Then Vorbis will have to be replaced by a successor because else you get backwards compatibility issues when players try to read vorbis with the new metadata format and can't!!!!!!</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&diff=8214Talk:Main Page2008-01-29T17:22:04Z<p>Xpete: /* Add xvid it's opensource */</p>
<hr />
<div>According to [[Special:Popularpages]], the various pages in the Demonstration section are the most visited parts of the wiki, so I moved that section to the top of the main page. --[[User:Andrel|Andrel]] 09:19, 26 April 2006 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Work in Progress ==<br />
<br />
It's not clear on first view (to me at least) that<br />
[[Main Page#Work in Progress]] is a link to<br />
[[Work In Progress]] (as none of the other section headings<br />
are). Possibly it should be a normal heading with the link<br />
in a short text below (à la [[Main Page#Other software]]).<br />
<br />
[[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 05:22, 1 February 2006 (PST)<br />
<br />
You are free to fix that. It's a wiki after all -- [[User:Jmspeex|Jmspeex]] 19:22, 1 February 2006 (PST)<br />
<br />
Done (just didn't want to trample all over the front page) -- [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 04:33, 2 February 2006 (PST)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Lock This Page ==<br />
<br />
On all/most other wikis the Main Page is locked so only admins can edit it. Due to the amount of vandalism, I think the [[Main Page]] should be locked and all changes discussed here. --[[User:SonicChao|SonicChao]] 05:11, 27 August 2006 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Missing Item on Page ==<br />
OggUVS isn't mentioned, please add this.<br />
<br />
<br />
== Paranoia / cdparanoia ==<br />
<br />
Why is there no listing under software of paranoia or cdparanoia? Also, there is no listing on the main xiph.org page. Is that software acknowlegded? --[[User:WhiteDragon|WhiteDragon]] 19:52, 9 September 2006 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Suggestion :-O ==<br />
First I want to congratulate you on the wonderful work being done. Thank you very much :-)<br />
Please allow anonymous edits (like wikipedia does) b'caus i'm too lazy to login :-)<br />
<br />
:I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the ton of hidden links I just culled has nothing to do with you... I can't speak for the people running Xiph but requiring a login reduces some of the flood of spam that shows up here, and Wikipedia has many more resources available to deal with it than this wiki does. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 06:06, 24 November 2006 (PST)<br />
<br />
== Proposal for a developer section ==<br />
<br />
As more developers start to "get it" about how ultra cool Ogg / Vorbis / Theora / etc is, wouldn't it be great to have a wiki section devoted to helping these budding programmers along? eg: i've written some nice code i'd be happy to share. Could contain a programming FAQ, how-to's, and real code. Thoughts? [[User:Davec|Davec]] 13:44, 6 December 2006 (PST)<br />
<br />
== Why CamelCase? ==<br />
<br />
MediaWiki supports free links, why are most page titles in the CamelCase format? - [[User:Sikon|Sikon]] 05:34, 27 February 2007 (PST)<br />
:CamelCase? I don't see what you mean. If you think something's wrong, you may go ahead and change it. That's what wikis are for.--[[User:Saoshyant|Saoshyant]] 05:37, 27 February 2007 (PST)<br />
:[[WhatHappened|Historical reasons]]. The original wiki used software that only supported [http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?CamelCase CamelCase]. For new pages it is fine to use free links. I suggest not renaming pages, as many of them have good search ranking. [[User:Andrel|Andrel]] 07:03, 27 February 2007 (PST)<br />
I see now. And thanks for the WhatHappened link, Andrel. I managed to recover two pages so far from web archive. I wonder if I'll savage it further.--[[User:Saoshyant|Saoshyant]] 08:28, 27 February 2007 (PST)<br />
<br />
== ICECast2 vs vBulletin ==<br />
<br />
Hi there,<br />
Fisrt let me thank you all the great work and the self performance over the ICECast streaming server<br />
<br />
I also Wonder if anyone had included ICECast directly into a vBulletin board having it worked from there on ..meaning enbable to use same username,permission and prefference from the database itself running on MySQL 5 having as if setting permission on for a usergroupe from there to enable them streaming out on your ICECast server and others can apply and yet just participate into the main forum itself<br />
<br />
I do have both running-up over my dedicated server now meanwhile if any would want to help me out creating like this hack or template am willing to give them all access for working over it <br />
can YOU imagine how friendly and powerful that ICECast would mean then<br />
<br />
hey give me a shout if willing to try it<br />
<br />
admin@gysmo.net<br />
<br />
== News ==<br />
<br />
Hi,<br />
<br />
I would really strongly suggest adding this to your news items... Someone has made a graphical interface for ffmpeg2theora at http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Video/Other-VIDEO-Tools/GFrontEnd-for-ffmpeg2theora.shtml<br />
<br />
I don't know the technical difficulties of building such a tool, but regardless, the ability for a common Windows user like myself to be able to just easily convert a proprietary file format to Ogg-Theora is really cool... I tested it out on the sample WMV file that came with this laptop, and the converted file worked great in Cortado... Of course, news about programs that allow one to record directly to Ogg-Theora would be even better, but this is still very important, imo... [[User:Brettz9|Brettz9]] 20:56, 4 July 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== .NET :-( ==<br />
<br />
> I would really strongly suggest adding this to your news items<br />
<br />
Check it out: > Requirements: .NET Framework 2.0<br />
<br />
Also, with 1.5 MiB size it's bigger than FFMPEG2THEORA itself (1.3 MiB after recompressing with UPX 3.0 --ultra-brute) - not that VERY good IMHO.<br />
<br />
: Sorry, do you mean MB as in Megabytes? That's a drop in the bucket of most hard drives nowadays, no? And .NET was already on my system for something I had downloaded earlier (not sure what, but maybe others may have it already too). My interest in seeing it announced is not how well it is implemented--if there are better alternatives let them be known--but that such a tool exists and it works (at least if you get the requirements).<br />
<br />
== MiB ||| .NET ==<br />
<br />
> Sorry, do you mean MB as in Megabytes?<br />
<br />
NO. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_prefix]]<br />
<br />
> And .NET was already on my system for something I had downloaded earlier (not sure what, but maybe others may have it already too)<br />
<br />
I don't have .NET and don't like it :-( Finally, the important thing is the FFMPEG2THEOA core and it works perfectly for me without .NET ;-)<br />
<br />
== Link to Games in Demonstrations Section? ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't there be a link to [[Games_that_use_Theora]] in the section with other demonstrations? Maybe there's not enough games listed on the page to warrant it?<br />
--[[User:Sim9|Sim9]] 11:47, 27 October 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:Yes. There's only two games listed right now. I'm pretty sure there's more out there. Sim9, can you help us listing more games?--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 11:56, 28 October 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::I'm sure you're right, there ''has'' to be more than two. Theora (and Vorbis) is now by default included in the Torque game engine, so there must be a lot of games using it by now. I just polled the Torque community to see if they know of any to help us fill up the list with some successful integrations! --[[User:Sim9|Sim9]] 19:02, 29 October 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Add xvid it's opensource ==<br />
Please add xvid to choosable video format in ogv and others.<br />
It's an open source, mature codec and doesn't have encoder problems theora currently has.<br />
Embedding it makes possible to show off ogv files with a codec that shows the tru power of ogv.<br />
<br />
Please make it possible to put this in, so .ogv can be used immediatelly with xvid and vorbis/speex/flac to create a mature and temporary solution until theora 1.0 hits the digital streets.<br />
Then users can just batch convert it with their applications whenever they feel/want to do it.<br />
(When they think theora is ready.)<br />
Could someone please look into this and tell me if this is possible and/or will be integrated?</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:Ogg&diff=8213Talk:Ogg2008-01-29T17:18:53Z<p>Xpete: added question</p>
<hr />
<div>== what about the '''.ogm''' format? ==<br />
is it officially dead?<br />
<br />
== what about the '''.mka''' and '''.mkv''' ([http:://www.matroska.org matroska]) format? ==<br />
someone says that vorbis streams are smaller if contained in .mka files instead of .ogg files.<br />
<br />
== Add xvid as TEMPORARY option until theora gets to 1.0 ==<br />
<br />
Because it's mature and OpenSource, I would suggest allowing this codec to be used in ogx and ogv files as video codec.<br />
But only until theora gets ready to 1.0 and users that have already video's they can just convert it in the appropriate format.</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:MIME_Types_and_File_Extensions&diff=8212Talk:MIME Types and File Extensions2008-01-29T17:13:43Z<p>Xpete: /* ogg vorbis should never had a v as a first letter but now it's too late, Quick successor with a slightly changed name because of the new ogg framework and metadata system */</p>
<hr />
<div>== .flac - application/flac ==<br />
Why not audio/flac?<br />
<br />
Presumedly to distinguish it from "unencapsulated" flac. I'm not sure this makes sense though. Native flac is a fairly light container, and I suspect the current application/x-flac usage is just an analogy with ogg. OTOH, I don't think anyone's done flac over rtp, where this would be needed, but that is something that's interesting.<br />
<br />
:Edit: I have changed my opinion in this subject. Regardless, Josh agrees with audio/flac in case someone is willing to register it. application/flac was never registered.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:57, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::In a way application/flac to describe a stream which uses FLAC encapsulation is the same as using application/ogg to describe a stream using Ogg encapsulation. I don't really know if this is academic thinking and it's more developer-facing than end-user-facing. The question is what is going to be most consistent (and therefore make sense to someone trying to work it out). Since FLAC in Ogg is natively FLAC encapsulated it may make sense to use the same mime-type for native FLAC as the codec mime type to be used for FLAC in Ogg. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 07:26, 28 June 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== .spx - audio/ogg ==<br />
Why not audio/spx?<br />
To distinguish it from ogg vorbis.<br />
<br />
:audio/speex is only used for Speex RTP or in any other case of "Oggless" Speex. Speex in Ogg, which is a common sight, is audio/ogg just like every other audio-only Ogg file, be it Vorbis, FLAC, Ghost/CELT, MIDI, and even OggPCM.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 07:01, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: Then we still need it for RTP and in native container seems to me.<br />
:: Because of the RTP vorbis and speex should have a unique MIME type right?<br />
:: And also for native container for making correct differences.<br />
:: (One of the greatest mistakes of computer programming is identifying two different things as the same.)<br />
:: Because you're goanna have to register it, best use it as well.<br />
<br />
== ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" ==<br />
<br />
I can't accept that ".ogg" becomes Vorbis I only extension.<br />
Ogg is not a codec. It is the container of codecs.<br />
That change will be missleading people.<br />
<br />
".ogg" has been defined as "application/ogg" and already used as Theora+Vorbis.<br />
Redefining ".ogg" as Vorbis I only extension and changing MIME type to "audio/ogg" is not backward-compatible.<br />
Changing spec should be more carefully.<br />
If possible, should not change fixed spec. (I know becoming RFC does not mean fixed spec. But it is treated as fixed spec) --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 07:31, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:We understand your concern, but application/ogg isn't about audio, and people out there have wrongly associated .ogg with Vorbis only, making it harder for other codecs like Theora to succeed because of the file extension. They do not understand that Ogg is a container; they think Ogg is Vorbis. Although this proposal is somewhat radical and some people aren't 100% happy with it, it's for the best. video/ogg and audio/ogg will also be much useful now with the <video> and <audio> elements of HTML 5.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:04, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::".ogv" and ".oga" may be useful. I can accept this. But changing the definition of ".ogg" is really needed? I can't find the necessity of this. It breaks backward-compatibility. No one will be happy with this change... --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 13:56, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::We are not breaking backwards-comaptibility. That's why Vorbis and Speex will be allowed to use .ogg and .spx instead of .oga. The only thing that may break backwards-compatibility is deprecating application/ogg in favor od video/ogg and audio/ogg. That and Theora files, but since there are no Theora hardware players that we know of, existing Theora files may be renamed to .ogv easily, making compatibility with previous files a non-issue. Backwards-compatibility was seriously considered during the creation of this proposal. We are not breaking it.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:53, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ummmmm..... I think ".ogg" re-definition is not necessary. My best resolution is simply adding the new ext definitions to RFC:<br />
::::* ".ogg" is application/ogg (as RFC3534)<br />
::::* define new ext and MIME : ".ogx", ".oga", ".ogv", etc...<br />
::::* Use of new extensions is recommended.<br />
::::* Official tools are using new ext (except .ogg for Vorbis I?)<br />
::::Changing of ".ogg"'s MIME type is really necessary? --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 16:35, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::: Want also to see more consistent behaviour like changing name of vorbis into something like n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
::::: And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis and ogg would be better instead of ogx <br />
::::: because people refer to ogg as ogg not ogx<br />
::::: Because of RTP and native containers codecs better have unique MIME-types:<br />
::::: Changes: vorbis: still .vorbis would be better(change name to something that doesn't starts with a v, nor, xor or g), <br />
::::: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/vorbis, speex: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/spx<br />
::::: (audio/ogg is being used for .oga and that is stands for ogg audio is very consistent and easy ::::: to see)<br />
::::: <br />
::::: It has to be registered anyway for RTP !!!! <br />
::::: (It wouldn't be such a big assigment now to do that, but over a year or two, <br />
::::: you can't go back anymore because of compatability!!!)<br />
:::::<br />
::::: And people think that vorbis is a video format because it starts with a v.<br />
::::: So they look around if their player supports vorbis video but they find out only audio is supported.<br />
::::: Mad about getting wrong information and quit ogg for an alternative mostly.<br />
::::: Please change the name or create a new format that is essentially vorbis with another name. <br />
::::: (And also something extra to have a reason for people to update.)<br />
::::: (You're goanna have to because of the new ogg framework hahaha!!!!!!)<br />
::::: Or else you get conflict issues and broken compatability !!!<br />
<br />
==text/cmml==<br />
text/cmml for CMML without container: the Codec mime types are to be used in Skeleton, can this mime type be applied to the CMML Ogg mapping? (It's not plain text in the way that Vorbis mapped into Ogg is exactly audio/vorbis.)<br />
<br />
== .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album (also separate pictures for each song)? Yes? Oh Boy, this is fantastic==<br />
<br />
Can multiple audio streams/files be packed to one oga? <br />
(I mean that there are seperatable flac/speex/vorbis files that can be played separately). <br />
If this is the case then oga is a very good candidate for <br />
ripping a cd with all of it's contents and metadata without loss.<br />
<br />
On a cd there is usually a picture. If you rip the cd to one of Xiph.org's free formats, <br />
it's lost because nothing supports this. <br />
Mayby oga could support this with some extra metadata and pictures in jpeg: <br />
a picture for the .oga and a picture for each number via metadata-system or something like that. <br />
This way someone can easily rip cd's and <br />
keep them in a consistent way on his or her computer. <br />
(One oga per cd, with the same picture as one the cd box, with all the numbers of one cd in oga file that can be played separatelly)<br />
<br />
:Yes, Ogg can carry multiple streams of audio, so you could backup an entire album in Ogg as FLAC or Vorbis and use the .oga extension. In this case alone, it is recommended to use .oga instead of .ogg because .ogg is for a single Vorbis stream file, while .oga requires a Skeleton stream which helps players recognize all the different songs in the file. Confused? One song, .ogg. Multiple songs in one file, .oga. Just make sure that the .oga file has a Skeleton stream. You can verify that with the ogginfo command line tool. And yes, you can also add a JPEG or PNG inside Ogg. I just don't know of any program that supports it, but theoretically it is possible. Just a heads up again, a song and an image are two streams of data, not just one, so again it would use .oga instead of .ogg. This also prevents breaking existing players that don't support embeded images.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:48, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: This sounds great and about streams of audio: <br />
Can I think of those streams also as separate audio files inside a multistream file? <br />
Because flac for example can also do up to eight streams.<br />
<br />
<br />
Have also a few other questions:<br />
- Is it possible to have an oga with an album in with a mix of songs in flac, vorbis and speexs?<br />
- Is it possible in oga to have a different picture for each song, stream ?<br />
(For when people make their own albums out of different albums and they want the picture of that album for each song.)<br />
<br />
:Again, yes. Theoretically, there is no limitation in what you can put in Ogg and the order you want it in, but while the format has no such limitations, this is not the case with the software out there. So, the short answer is, for the general public it will look as if Ogg cannot do that which you ask even though it can.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 06:58, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
:: Fantastic, please make sure this is included into the libraries of Xiph.org since applications can easily include them.<br />
<br />
== ogg vorbis should never had a v as a first letter but now it's too late, Quick successor with a slightly changed name because of the new ogg framework and metadata system could break through easily==<br />
<br />
Many people when they first hear the word vorbis think it's a video codec because of the v.<br />
(My brother thought also and he's like already 15 years old.)<br />
<br />
Mayby people don't store music in vorbis because they think it's for video.<br />
Then they look for software to do the job and can't find anything.<br />
They get mad and look for something else.<br />
<br />
Here is a very radical idea but it would make some things more clearly and prevent mistakes in the future.<br />
Make a NEW codec/file format that's actually vorbis but with another name like m/l/w-orbis. (You guys pick it out)<br />
(But no norbis wrongly typed=nor can cause crash in the wrong place in wrongly constructed software same for xor(bis) and not gorbis)<br />
There must still be an advantage of the new codec, format because otherwise users won't have a reason to update.<br />
<br />
(The name of course has to sound like vorbis.)<br />
(And mayby make ogg and vorbis and ?orbis more popular in the future.)<br />
<br />
And mime type is then audio/ m/l/w-orbis.<br />
(I'll assume MIME-type is needed because of RTP and native container.)</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:MIME_Types_and_File_Extensions&diff=8211Talk:MIME Types and File Extensions2008-01-29T17:12:59Z<p>Xpete: /* ogg vorbis should never had a v as a first letter but now it's too late, or isn't it? */</p>
<hr />
<div>== .flac - application/flac ==<br />
Why not audio/flac?<br />
<br />
Presumedly to distinguish it from "unencapsulated" flac. I'm not sure this makes sense though. Native flac is a fairly light container, and I suspect the current application/x-flac usage is just an analogy with ogg. OTOH, I don't think anyone's done flac over rtp, where this would be needed, but that is something that's interesting.<br />
<br />
:Edit: I have changed my opinion in this subject. Regardless, Josh agrees with audio/flac in case someone is willing to register it. application/flac was never registered.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:57, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::In a way application/flac to describe a stream which uses FLAC encapsulation is the same as using application/ogg to describe a stream using Ogg encapsulation. I don't really know if this is academic thinking and it's more developer-facing than end-user-facing. The question is what is going to be most consistent (and therefore make sense to someone trying to work it out). Since FLAC in Ogg is natively FLAC encapsulated it may make sense to use the same mime-type for native FLAC as the codec mime type to be used for FLAC in Ogg. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 07:26, 28 June 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== .spx - audio/ogg ==<br />
Why not audio/spx?<br />
To distinguish it from ogg vorbis.<br />
<br />
:audio/speex is only used for Speex RTP or in any other case of "Oggless" Speex. Speex in Ogg, which is a common sight, is audio/ogg just like every other audio-only Ogg file, be it Vorbis, FLAC, Ghost/CELT, MIDI, and even OggPCM.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 07:01, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: Then we still need it for RTP and in native container seems to me.<br />
:: Because of the RTP vorbis and speex should have a unique MIME type right?<br />
:: And also for native container for making correct differences.<br />
:: (One of the greatest mistakes of computer programming is identifying two different things as the same.)<br />
:: Because you're goanna have to register it, best use it as well.<br />
<br />
== ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" ==<br />
<br />
I can't accept that ".ogg" becomes Vorbis I only extension.<br />
Ogg is not a codec. It is the container of codecs.<br />
That change will be missleading people.<br />
<br />
".ogg" has been defined as "application/ogg" and already used as Theora+Vorbis.<br />
Redefining ".ogg" as Vorbis I only extension and changing MIME type to "audio/ogg" is not backward-compatible.<br />
Changing spec should be more carefully.<br />
If possible, should not change fixed spec. (I know becoming RFC does not mean fixed spec. But it is treated as fixed spec) --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 07:31, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:We understand your concern, but application/ogg isn't about audio, and people out there have wrongly associated .ogg with Vorbis only, making it harder for other codecs like Theora to succeed because of the file extension. They do not understand that Ogg is a container; they think Ogg is Vorbis. Although this proposal is somewhat radical and some people aren't 100% happy with it, it's for the best. video/ogg and audio/ogg will also be much useful now with the <video> and <audio> elements of HTML 5.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:04, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::".ogv" and ".oga" may be useful. I can accept this. But changing the definition of ".ogg" is really needed? I can't find the necessity of this. It breaks backward-compatibility. No one will be happy with this change... --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 13:56, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::We are not breaking backwards-comaptibility. That's why Vorbis and Speex will be allowed to use .ogg and .spx instead of .oga. The only thing that may break backwards-compatibility is deprecating application/ogg in favor od video/ogg and audio/ogg. That and Theora files, but since there are no Theora hardware players that we know of, existing Theora files may be renamed to .ogv easily, making compatibility with previous files a non-issue. Backwards-compatibility was seriously considered during the creation of this proposal. We are not breaking it.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:53, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ummmmm..... I think ".ogg" re-definition is not necessary. My best resolution is simply adding the new ext definitions to RFC:<br />
::::* ".ogg" is application/ogg (as RFC3534)<br />
::::* define new ext and MIME : ".ogx", ".oga", ".ogv", etc...<br />
::::* Use of new extensions is recommended.<br />
::::* Official tools are using new ext (except .ogg for Vorbis I?)<br />
::::Changing of ".ogg"'s MIME type is really necessary? --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 16:35, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::: Want also to see more consistent behaviour like changing name of vorbis into something like n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
::::: And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis and ogg would be better instead of ogx <br />
::::: because people refer to ogg as ogg not ogx<br />
::::: Because of RTP and native containers codecs better have unique MIME-types:<br />
::::: Changes: vorbis: still .vorbis would be better(change name to something that doesn't starts with a v, nor, xor or g), <br />
::::: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/vorbis, speex: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/spx<br />
::::: (audio/ogg is being used for .oga and that is stands for ogg audio is very consistent and easy ::::: to see)<br />
::::: <br />
::::: It has to be registered anyway for RTP !!!! <br />
::::: (It wouldn't be such a big assigment now to do that, but over a year or two, <br />
::::: you can't go back anymore because of compatability!!!)<br />
:::::<br />
::::: And people think that vorbis is a video format because it starts with a v.<br />
::::: So they look around if their player supports vorbis video but they find out only audio is supported.<br />
::::: Mad about getting wrong information and quit ogg for an alternative mostly.<br />
::::: Please change the name or create a new format that is essentially vorbis with another name. <br />
::::: (And also something extra to have a reason for people to update.)<br />
::::: (You're goanna have to because of the new ogg framework hahaha!!!!!!)<br />
::::: Or else you get conflict issues and broken compatability !!!<br />
<br />
==text/cmml==<br />
text/cmml for CMML without container: the Codec mime types are to be used in Skeleton, can this mime type be applied to the CMML Ogg mapping? (It's not plain text in the way that Vorbis mapped into Ogg is exactly audio/vorbis.)<br />
<br />
== .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album (also separate pictures for each song)? Yes? Oh Boy, this is fantastic==<br />
<br />
Can multiple audio streams/files be packed to one oga? <br />
(I mean that there are seperatable flac/speex/vorbis files that can be played separately). <br />
If this is the case then oga is a very good candidate for <br />
ripping a cd with all of it's contents and metadata without loss.<br />
<br />
On a cd there is usually a picture. If you rip the cd to one of Xiph.org's free formats, <br />
it's lost because nothing supports this. <br />
Mayby oga could support this with some extra metadata and pictures in jpeg: <br />
a picture for the .oga and a picture for each number via metadata-system or something like that. <br />
This way someone can easily rip cd's and <br />
keep them in a consistent way on his or her computer. <br />
(One oga per cd, with the same picture as one the cd box, with all the numbers of one cd in oga file that can be played separatelly)<br />
<br />
:Yes, Ogg can carry multiple streams of audio, so you could backup an entire album in Ogg as FLAC or Vorbis and use the .oga extension. In this case alone, it is recommended to use .oga instead of .ogg because .ogg is for a single Vorbis stream file, while .oga requires a Skeleton stream which helps players recognize all the different songs in the file. Confused? One song, .ogg. Multiple songs in one file, .oga. Just make sure that the .oga file has a Skeleton stream. You can verify that with the ogginfo command line tool. And yes, you can also add a JPEG or PNG inside Ogg. I just don't know of any program that supports it, but theoretically it is possible. Just a heads up again, a song and an image are two streams of data, not just one, so again it would use .oga instead of .ogg. This also prevents breaking existing players that don't support embeded images.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:48, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: This sounds great and about streams of audio: <br />
Can I think of those streams also as separate audio files inside a multistream file? <br />
Because flac for example can also do up to eight streams.<br />
<br />
<br />
Have also a few other questions:<br />
- Is it possible to have an oga with an album in with a mix of songs in flac, vorbis and speexs?<br />
- Is it possible in oga to have a different picture for each song, stream ?<br />
(For when people make their own albums out of different albums and they want the picture of that album for each song.)<br />
<br />
:Again, yes. Theoretically, there is no limitation in what you can put in Ogg and the order you want it in, but while the format has no such limitations, this is not the case with the software out there. So, the short answer is, for the general public it will look as if Ogg cannot do that which you ask even though it can.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 06:58, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
:: Fantastic, please make sure this is included into the libraries of Xiph.org since applications can easily include them.<br />
<br />
== ogg vorbis should never had a v as a first letter but now it's too late, Quick successor with a slightly changed name because of the new ogg framework and metadata system ==<br />
<br />
Many people when they first hear the word vorbis think it's a video codec because of the v.<br />
(My brother thought also and he's like already 15 years old.)<br />
<br />
Mayby people don't store music in vorbis because they think it's for video.<br />
Then they look for software to do the job and can't find anything.<br />
They get mad and look for something else.<br />
<br />
Here is a very radical idea but it would make some things more clearly and prevent mistakes in the future.<br />
Make a NEW codec/file format that's actually vorbis but with another name like m/l/w-orbis. (You guys pick it out)<br />
(But no norbis wrongly typed=nor can cause crash in the wrong place in wrongly constructed software same for xor(bis) and not gorbis)<br />
There must still be an advantage of the new codec, format because otherwise users won't have a reason to update.<br />
<br />
(The name of course has to sound like vorbis.)<br />
(And mayby make ogg and vorbis and ?orbis more popular in the future.)<br />
<br />
And mime type is then audio/ m/l/w-orbis.<br />
(I'll assume MIME-type is needed because of RTP and native container.)</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:MIME_Types_and_File_Extensions&diff=8210Talk:MIME Types and File Extensions2008-01-29T17:10:12Z<p>Xpete: /* .spx - audio/ogg */</p>
<hr />
<div>== .flac - application/flac ==<br />
Why not audio/flac?<br />
<br />
Presumedly to distinguish it from "unencapsulated" flac. I'm not sure this makes sense though. Native flac is a fairly light container, and I suspect the current application/x-flac usage is just an analogy with ogg. OTOH, I don't think anyone's done flac over rtp, where this would be needed, but that is something that's interesting.<br />
<br />
:Edit: I have changed my opinion in this subject. Regardless, Josh agrees with audio/flac in case someone is willing to register it. application/flac was never registered.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:57, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::In a way application/flac to describe a stream which uses FLAC encapsulation is the same as using application/ogg to describe a stream using Ogg encapsulation. I don't really know if this is academic thinking and it's more developer-facing than end-user-facing. The question is what is going to be most consistent (and therefore make sense to someone trying to work it out). Since FLAC in Ogg is natively FLAC encapsulated it may make sense to use the same mime-type for native FLAC as the codec mime type to be used for FLAC in Ogg. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 07:26, 28 June 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== .spx - audio/ogg ==<br />
Why not audio/spx?<br />
To distinguish it from ogg vorbis.<br />
<br />
:audio/speex is only used for Speex RTP or in any other case of "Oggless" Speex. Speex in Ogg, which is a common sight, is audio/ogg just like every other audio-only Ogg file, be it Vorbis, FLAC, Ghost/CELT, MIDI, and even OggPCM.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 07:01, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: Then we still need it for RTP and in native container seems to me.<br />
:: Because of the RTP vorbis and speex should have a unique MIME type right?<br />
:: And also for native container for making correct differences.<br />
:: (One of the greatest mistakes of computer programming is identifying two different things as the same.)<br />
:: Because you're goanna have to register it, best use it as well.<br />
<br />
== ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" ==<br />
<br />
I can't accept that ".ogg" becomes Vorbis I only extension.<br />
Ogg is not a codec. It is the container of codecs.<br />
That change will be missleading people.<br />
<br />
".ogg" has been defined as "application/ogg" and already used as Theora+Vorbis.<br />
Redefining ".ogg" as Vorbis I only extension and changing MIME type to "audio/ogg" is not backward-compatible.<br />
Changing spec should be more carefully.<br />
If possible, should not change fixed spec. (I know becoming RFC does not mean fixed spec. But it is treated as fixed spec) --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 07:31, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:We understand your concern, but application/ogg isn't about audio, and people out there have wrongly associated .ogg with Vorbis only, making it harder for other codecs like Theora to succeed because of the file extension. They do not understand that Ogg is a container; they think Ogg is Vorbis. Although this proposal is somewhat radical and some people aren't 100% happy with it, it's for the best. video/ogg and audio/ogg will also be much useful now with the <video> and <audio> elements of HTML 5.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:04, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::".ogv" and ".oga" may be useful. I can accept this. But changing the definition of ".ogg" is really needed? I can't find the necessity of this. It breaks backward-compatibility. No one will be happy with this change... --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 13:56, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::We are not breaking backwards-comaptibility. That's why Vorbis and Speex will be allowed to use .ogg and .spx instead of .oga. The only thing that may break backwards-compatibility is deprecating application/ogg in favor od video/ogg and audio/ogg. That and Theora files, but since there are no Theora hardware players that we know of, existing Theora files may be renamed to .ogv easily, making compatibility with previous files a non-issue. Backwards-compatibility was seriously considered during the creation of this proposal. We are not breaking it.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:53, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ummmmm..... I think ".ogg" re-definition is not necessary. My best resolution is simply adding the new ext definitions to RFC:<br />
::::* ".ogg" is application/ogg (as RFC3534)<br />
::::* define new ext and MIME : ".ogx", ".oga", ".ogv", etc...<br />
::::* Use of new extensions is recommended.<br />
::::* Official tools are using new ext (except .ogg for Vorbis I?)<br />
::::Changing of ".ogg"'s MIME type is really necessary? --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 16:35, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::: Want also to see more consistent behaviour like changing name of vorbis into something like n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
::::: And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis and ogg would be better instead of ogx <br />
::::: because people refer to ogg as ogg not ogx<br />
::::: Because of RTP and native containers codecs better have unique MIME-types:<br />
::::: Changes: vorbis: still .vorbis would be better(change name to something that doesn't starts with a v, nor, xor or g), <br />
::::: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/vorbis, speex: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/spx<br />
::::: (audio/ogg is being used for .oga and that is stands for ogg audio is very consistent and easy ::::: to see)<br />
::::: <br />
::::: It has to be registered anyway for RTP !!!! <br />
::::: (It wouldn't be such a big assigment now to do that, but over a year or two, <br />
::::: you can't go back anymore because of compatability!!!)<br />
:::::<br />
::::: And people think that vorbis is a video format because it starts with a v.<br />
::::: So they look around if their player supports vorbis video but they find out only audio is supported.<br />
::::: Mad about getting wrong information and quit ogg for an alternative mostly.<br />
::::: Please change the name or create a new format that is essentially vorbis with another name. <br />
::::: (And also something extra to have a reason for people to update.)<br />
::::: (You're goanna have to because of the new ogg framework hahaha!!!!!!)<br />
::::: Or else you get conflict issues and broken compatability !!!<br />
<br />
==text/cmml==<br />
text/cmml for CMML without container: the Codec mime types are to be used in Skeleton, can this mime type be applied to the CMML Ogg mapping? (It's not plain text in the way that Vorbis mapped into Ogg is exactly audio/vorbis.)<br />
<br />
== .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album (also separate pictures for each song)? Yes? Oh Boy, this is fantastic==<br />
<br />
Can multiple audio streams/files be packed to one oga? <br />
(I mean that there are seperatable flac/speex/vorbis files that can be played separately). <br />
If this is the case then oga is a very good candidate for <br />
ripping a cd with all of it's contents and metadata without loss.<br />
<br />
On a cd there is usually a picture. If you rip the cd to one of Xiph.org's free formats, <br />
it's lost because nothing supports this. <br />
Mayby oga could support this with some extra metadata and pictures in jpeg: <br />
a picture for the .oga and a picture for each number via metadata-system or something like that. <br />
This way someone can easily rip cd's and <br />
keep them in a consistent way on his or her computer. <br />
(One oga per cd, with the same picture as one the cd box, with all the numbers of one cd in oga file that can be played separatelly)<br />
<br />
:Yes, Ogg can carry multiple streams of audio, so you could backup an entire album in Ogg as FLAC or Vorbis and use the .oga extension. In this case alone, it is recommended to use .oga instead of .ogg because .ogg is for a single Vorbis stream file, while .oga requires a Skeleton stream which helps players recognize all the different songs in the file. Confused? One song, .ogg. Multiple songs in one file, .oga. Just make sure that the .oga file has a Skeleton stream. You can verify that with the ogginfo command line tool. And yes, you can also add a JPEG or PNG inside Ogg. I just don't know of any program that supports it, but theoretically it is possible. Just a heads up again, a song and an image are two streams of data, not just one, so again it would use .oga instead of .ogg. This also prevents breaking existing players that don't support embeded images.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:48, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: This sounds great and about streams of audio: <br />
Can I think of those streams also as separate audio files inside a multistream file? <br />
Because flac for example can also do up to eight streams.<br />
<br />
<br />
Have also a few other questions:<br />
- Is it possible to have an oga with an album in with a mix of songs in flac, vorbis and speexs?<br />
- Is it possible in oga to have a different picture for each song, stream ?<br />
(For when people make their own albums out of different albums and they want the picture of that album for each song.)<br />
<br />
:Again, yes. Theoretically, there is no limitation in what you can put in Ogg and the order you want it in, but while the format has no such limitations, this is not the case with the software out there. So, the short answer is, for the general public it will look as if Ogg cannot do that which you ask even though it can.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 06:58, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
:: Fantastic, please make sure this is included into the libraries of Xiph.org since applications can easily include them.<br />
<br />
== ogg vorbis should never had a v as a first letter but now it's too late, or isn't it? ==<br />
<br />
Many people when they first hear the word vorbis think it's a video codec because of the v.<br />
(My brother thought also and he's like already 15 years old.)<br />
<br />
Mayby people don't store music in vorbis because they think it's for video.<br />
Then they look for software to do the job and can't find anything.<br />
They get mad and look for something else.<br />
<br />
Here is a very radical idea but it would make some things more clearly and prevent mistakes in the future.<br />
Make a NEW codec/file format that's actually vorbis but with another name like m/l/w-orbis. (You guys pick it out)<br />
(But no norbis wrongly typed=nor can cause crash in the wrong place in wrongly constructed software same fo xor(bis) and not gorbis)<br />
There must still be an advantage of the new codec, format because otherwise users won't have a reason to update.<br />
<br />
(The name of course has to sound like vorbis.)<br />
(And mayby make ogg and vorbis and ?orbis more popular in the future.)<br />
<br />
And mime type is then audio/ m/l/w-orbis.<br />
(I'll assume MIME-type is needed because of RTP and native container.)</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:MIME_Types_and_File_Extensions&diff=8209Talk:MIME Types and File Extensions2008-01-29T17:08:33Z<p>Xpete: /* .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album (also separate pictures for each song? Yes? This is fantastic */</p>
<hr />
<div>== .flac - application/flac ==<br />
Why not audio/flac?<br />
<br />
Presumedly to distinguish it from "unencapsulated" flac. I'm not sure this makes sense though. Native flac is a fairly light container, and I suspect the current application/x-flac usage is just an analogy with ogg. OTOH, I don't think anyone's done flac over rtp, where this would be needed, but that is something that's interesting.<br />
<br />
:Edit: I have changed my opinion in this subject. Regardless, Josh agrees with audio/flac in case someone is willing to register it. application/flac was never registered.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:57, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::In a way application/flac to describe a stream which uses FLAC encapsulation is the same as using application/ogg to describe a stream using Ogg encapsulation. I don't really know if this is academic thinking and it's more developer-facing than end-user-facing. The question is what is going to be most consistent (and therefore make sense to someone trying to work it out). Since FLAC in Ogg is natively FLAC encapsulated it may make sense to use the same mime-type for native FLAC as the codec mime type to be used for FLAC in Ogg. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 07:26, 28 June 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== .spx - audio/ogg ==<br />
Why not audio/spx?<br />
To distinguish it from ogg vorbis.<br />
<br />
:audio/speex is only used for Speex RTP or in any other case of "Oggless" Speex. Speex in Ogg, which is a common sight, is audio/ogg just like every other audio-only Ogg file, be it Vorbis, FLAC, Ghost/CELT, MIDI, and even OggPCM.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 07:01, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: Then we still need it for RTP and in native container seems to me.<br />
:: Because of the RTP vorbis and speex should have a unique MIME type right?<br />
:: And also for native container for making correct differences.<br />
:: (One of the greatest mistakes of computer programming is identifying two different things as the same.)<br />
<br />
== ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" ==<br />
<br />
I can't accept that ".ogg" becomes Vorbis I only extension.<br />
Ogg is not a codec. It is the container of codecs.<br />
That change will be missleading people.<br />
<br />
".ogg" has been defined as "application/ogg" and already used as Theora+Vorbis.<br />
Redefining ".ogg" as Vorbis I only extension and changing MIME type to "audio/ogg" is not backward-compatible.<br />
Changing spec should be more carefully.<br />
If possible, should not change fixed spec. (I know becoming RFC does not mean fixed spec. But it is treated as fixed spec) --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 07:31, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:We understand your concern, but application/ogg isn't about audio, and people out there have wrongly associated .ogg with Vorbis only, making it harder for other codecs like Theora to succeed because of the file extension. They do not understand that Ogg is a container; they think Ogg is Vorbis. Although this proposal is somewhat radical and some people aren't 100% happy with it, it's for the best. video/ogg and audio/ogg will also be much useful now with the <video> and <audio> elements of HTML 5.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:04, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::".ogv" and ".oga" may be useful. I can accept this. But changing the definition of ".ogg" is really needed? I can't find the necessity of this. It breaks backward-compatibility. No one will be happy with this change... --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 13:56, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::We are not breaking backwards-comaptibility. That's why Vorbis and Speex will be allowed to use .ogg and .spx instead of .oga. The only thing that may break backwards-compatibility is deprecating application/ogg in favor od video/ogg and audio/ogg. That and Theora files, but since there are no Theora hardware players that we know of, existing Theora files may be renamed to .ogv easily, making compatibility with previous files a non-issue. Backwards-compatibility was seriously considered during the creation of this proposal. We are not breaking it.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:53, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ummmmm..... I think ".ogg" re-definition is not necessary. My best resolution is simply adding the new ext definitions to RFC:<br />
::::* ".ogg" is application/ogg (as RFC3534)<br />
::::* define new ext and MIME : ".ogx", ".oga", ".ogv", etc...<br />
::::* Use of new extensions is recommended.<br />
::::* Official tools are using new ext (except .ogg for Vorbis I?)<br />
::::Changing of ".ogg"'s MIME type is really necessary? --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 16:35, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::: Want also to see more consistent behaviour like changing name of vorbis into something like n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
::::: And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis and ogg would be better instead of ogx <br />
::::: because people refer to ogg as ogg not ogx<br />
::::: Because of RTP and native containers codecs better have unique MIME-types:<br />
::::: Changes: vorbis: still .vorbis would be better(change name to something that doesn't starts with a v, nor, xor or g), <br />
::::: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/vorbis, speex: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/spx<br />
::::: (audio/ogg is being used for .oga and that is stands for ogg audio is very consistent and easy ::::: to see)<br />
::::: <br />
::::: It has to be registered anyway for RTP !!!! <br />
::::: (It wouldn't be such a big assigment now to do that, but over a year or two, <br />
::::: you can't go back anymore because of compatability!!!)<br />
:::::<br />
::::: And people think that vorbis is a video format because it starts with a v.<br />
::::: So they look around if their player supports vorbis video but they find out only audio is supported.<br />
::::: Mad about getting wrong information and quit ogg for an alternative mostly.<br />
::::: Please change the name or create a new format that is essentially vorbis with another name. <br />
::::: (And also something extra to have a reason for people to update.)<br />
::::: (You're goanna have to because of the new ogg framework hahaha!!!!!!)<br />
::::: Or else you get conflict issues and broken compatability !!!<br />
<br />
==text/cmml==<br />
text/cmml for CMML without container: the Codec mime types are to be used in Skeleton, can this mime type be applied to the CMML Ogg mapping? (It's not plain text in the way that Vorbis mapped into Ogg is exactly audio/vorbis.)<br />
<br />
== .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album (also separate pictures for each song)? Yes? Oh Boy, this is fantastic==<br />
<br />
Can multiple audio streams/files be packed to one oga? <br />
(I mean that there are seperatable flac/speex/vorbis files that can be played separately). <br />
If this is the case then oga is a very good candidate for <br />
ripping a cd with all of it's contents and metadata without loss.<br />
<br />
On a cd there is usually a picture. If you rip the cd to one of Xiph.org's free formats, <br />
it's lost because nothing supports this. <br />
Mayby oga could support this with some extra metadata and pictures in jpeg: <br />
a picture for the .oga and a picture for each number via metadata-system or something like that. <br />
This way someone can easily rip cd's and <br />
keep them in a consistent way on his or her computer. <br />
(One oga per cd, with the same picture as one the cd box, with all the numbers of one cd in oga file that can be played separatelly)<br />
<br />
:Yes, Ogg can carry multiple streams of audio, so you could backup an entire album in Ogg as FLAC or Vorbis and use the .oga extension. In this case alone, it is recommended to use .oga instead of .ogg because .ogg is for a single Vorbis stream file, while .oga requires a Skeleton stream which helps players recognize all the different songs in the file. Confused? One song, .ogg. Multiple songs in one file, .oga. Just make sure that the .oga file has a Skeleton stream. You can verify that with the ogginfo command line tool. And yes, you can also add a JPEG or PNG inside Ogg. I just don't know of any program that supports it, but theoretically it is possible. Just a heads up again, a song and an image are two streams of data, not just one, so again it would use .oga instead of .ogg. This also prevents breaking existing players that don't support embeded images.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:48, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: This sounds great and about streams of audio: <br />
Can I think of those streams also as separate audio files inside a multistream file? <br />
Because flac for example can also do up to eight streams.<br />
<br />
<br />
Have also a few other questions:<br />
- Is it possible to have an oga with an album in with a mix of songs in flac, vorbis and speexs?<br />
- Is it possible in oga to have a different picture for each song, stream ?<br />
(For when people make their own albums out of different albums and they want the picture of that album for each song.)<br />
<br />
:Again, yes. Theoretically, there is no limitation in what you can put in Ogg and the order you want it in, but while the format has no such limitations, this is not the case with the software out there. So, the short answer is, for the general public it will look as if Ogg cannot do that which you ask even though it can.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 06:58, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
:: Fantastic, please make sure this is included into the libraries of Xiph.org since applications can easily include them.<br />
<br />
== ogg vorbis should never had a v as a first letter but now it's too late, or isn't it? ==<br />
<br />
Many people when they first hear the word vorbis think it's a video codec because of the v.<br />
(My brother thought also and he's like already 15 years old.)<br />
<br />
Mayby people don't store music in vorbis because they think it's for video.<br />
Then they look for software to do the job and can't find anything.<br />
They get mad and look for something else.<br />
<br />
Here is a very radical idea but it would make some things more clearly and prevent mistakes in the future.<br />
Make a NEW codec/file format that's actually vorbis but with another name like m/l/w-orbis. (You guys pick it out)<br />
(But no norbis wrongly typed=nor can cause crash in the wrong place in wrongly constructed software same fo xor(bis) and not gorbis)<br />
There must still be an advantage of the new codec, format because otherwise users won't have a reason to update.<br />
<br />
(The name of course has to sound like vorbis.)<br />
(And mayby make ogg and vorbis and ?orbis more popular in the future.)<br />
<br />
And mime type is then audio/ m/l/w-orbis.<br />
(I'll assume MIME-type is needed because of RTP and native container.)</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:MIME_Types_and_File_Extensions&diff=8208Talk:MIME Types and File Extensions2008-01-29T17:07:56Z<p>Xpete: /* ogg vorbis should never had a v as a first letter but now it's too late, or isn't it? */</p>
<hr />
<div>== .flac - application/flac ==<br />
Why not audio/flac?<br />
<br />
Presumedly to distinguish it from "unencapsulated" flac. I'm not sure this makes sense though. Native flac is a fairly light container, and I suspect the current application/x-flac usage is just an analogy with ogg. OTOH, I don't think anyone's done flac over rtp, where this would be needed, but that is something that's interesting.<br />
<br />
:Edit: I have changed my opinion in this subject. Regardless, Josh agrees with audio/flac in case someone is willing to register it. application/flac was never registered.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:57, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::In a way application/flac to describe a stream which uses FLAC encapsulation is the same as using application/ogg to describe a stream using Ogg encapsulation. I don't really know if this is academic thinking and it's more developer-facing than end-user-facing. The question is what is going to be most consistent (and therefore make sense to someone trying to work it out). Since FLAC in Ogg is natively FLAC encapsulated it may make sense to use the same mime-type for native FLAC as the codec mime type to be used for FLAC in Ogg. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 07:26, 28 June 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== .spx - audio/ogg ==<br />
Why not audio/spx?<br />
To distinguish it from ogg vorbis.<br />
<br />
:audio/speex is only used for Speex RTP or in any other case of "Oggless" Speex. Speex in Ogg, which is a common sight, is audio/ogg just like every other audio-only Ogg file, be it Vorbis, FLAC, Ghost/CELT, MIDI, and even OggPCM.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 07:01, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: Then we still need it for RTP and in native container seems to me.<br />
:: Because of the RTP vorbis and speex should have a unique MIME type right?<br />
:: And also for native container for making correct differences.<br />
:: (One of the greatest mistakes of computer programming is identifying two different things as the same.)<br />
<br />
== ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" ==<br />
<br />
I can't accept that ".ogg" becomes Vorbis I only extension.<br />
Ogg is not a codec. It is the container of codecs.<br />
That change will be missleading people.<br />
<br />
".ogg" has been defined as "application/ogg" and already used as Theora+Vorbis.<br />
Redefining ".ogg" as Vorbis I only extension and changing MIME type to "audio/ogg" is not backward-compatible.<br />
Changing spec should be more carefully.<br />
If possible, should not change fixed spec. (I know becoming RFC does not mean fixed spec. But it is treated as fixed spec) --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 07:31, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:We understand your concern, but application/ogg isn't about audio, and people out there have wrongly associated .ogg with Vorbis only, making it harder for other codecs like Theora to succeed because of the file extension. They do not understand that Ogg is a container; they think Ogg is Vorbis. Although this proposal is somewhat radical and some people aren't 100% happy with it, it's for the best. video/ogg and audio/ogg will also be much useful now with the <video> and <audio> elements of HTML 5.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:04, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::".ogv" and ".oga" may be useful. I can accept this. But changing the definition of ".ogg" is really needed? I can't find the necessity of this. It breaks backward-compatibility. No one will be happy with this change... --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 13:56, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::We are not breaking backwards-comaptibility. That's why Vorbis and Speex will be allowed to use .ogg and .spx instead of .oga. The only thing that may break backwards-compatibility is deprecating application/ogg in favor od video/ogg and audio/ogg. That and Theora files, but since there are no Theora hardware players that we know of, existing Theora files may be renamed to .ogv easily, making compatibility with previous files a non-issue. Backwards-compatibility was seriously considered during the creation of this proposal. We are not breaking it.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:53, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ummmmm..... I think ".ogg" re-definition is not necessary. My best resolution is simply adding the new ext definitions to RFC:<br />
::::* ".ogg" is application/ogg (as RFC3534)<br />
::::* define new ext and MIME : ".ogx", ".oga", ".ogv", etc...<br />
::::* Use of new extensions is recommended.<br />
::::* Official tools are using new ext (except .ogg for Vorbis I?)<br />
::::Changing of ".ogg"'s MIME type is really necessary? --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 16:35, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::: Want also to see more consistent behaviour like changing name of vorbis into something like n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
::::: And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis and ogg would be better instead of ogx <br />
::::: because people refer to ogg as ogg not ogx<br />
::::: Because of RTP and native containers codecs better have unique MIME-types:<br />
::::: Changes: vorbis: still .vorbis would be better(change name to something that doesn't starts with a v, nor, xor or g), <br />
::::: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/vorbis, speex: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/spx<br />
::::: (audio/ogg is being used for .oga and that is stands for ogg audio is very consistent and easy ::::: to see)<br />
::::: <br />
::::: It has to be registered anyway for RTP !!!! <br />
::::: (It wouldn't be such a big assigment now to do that, but over a year or two, <br />
::::: you can't go back anymore because of compatability!!!)<br />
:::::<br />
::::: And people think that vorbis is a video format because it starts with a v.<br />
::::: So they look around if their player supports vorbis video but they find out only audio is supported.<br />
::::: Mad about getting wrong information and quit ogg for an alternative mostly.<br />
::::: Please change the name or create a new format that is essentially vorbis with another name. <br />
::::: (And also something extra to have a reason for people to update.)<br />
::::: (You're goanna have to because of the new ogg framework hahaha!!!!!!)<br />
::::: Or else you get conflict issues and broken compatability !!!<br />
<br />
==text/cmml==<br />
text/cmml for CMML without container: the Codec mime types are to be used in Skeleton, can this mime type be applied to the CMML Ogg mapping? (It's not plain text in the way that Vorbis mapped into Ogg is exactly audio/vorbis.)<br />
<br />
== .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album (also separate pictures for each song? Yes? This is fantastic==<br />
<br />
Can multiple audio streams/files be packed to one oga? <br />
(I mean that there are seperatable flac/speex/vorbis files that can be played separately). <br />
If this is the case then oga is a very good candidate for <br />
ripping a cd with all of it's contents and metadata without loss.<br />
<br />
On a cd there is usually a picture. If you rip the cd to one of Xiph.org's free formats, <br />
it's lost because nothing supports this. <br />
Mayby oga could support this with some extra metadata and pictures in jpeg: <br />
a picture for the .oga and a picture for each number via metadata-system or something like that. <br />
This way someone can easily rip cd's and <br />
keep them in a consistent way on his or her computer. <br />
(One oga per cd, with the same picture as one the cd box, with all the numbers of one cd in oga file that can be played separatelly)<br />
<br />
:Yes, Ogg can carry multiple streams of audio, so you could backup an entire album in Ogg as FLAC or Vorbis and use the .oga extension. In this case alone, it is recommended to use .oga instead of .ogg because .ogg is for a single Vorbis stream file, while .oga requires a Skeleton stream which helps players recognize all the different songs in the file. Confused? One song, .ogg. Multiple songs in one file, .oga. Just make sure that the .oga file has a Skeleton stream. You can verify that with the ogginfo command line tool. And yes, you can also add a JPEG or PNG inside Ogg. I just don't know of any program that supports it, but theoretically it is possible. Just a heads up again, a song and an image are two streams of data, not just one, so again it would use .oga instead of .ogg. This also prevents breaking existing players that don't support embeded images.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:48, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: This sounds great and about streams of audio: <br />
Can I think of those streams also as separate audio files inside a multistream file? <br />
Because flac for example can also do up to eight streams.<br />
<br />
<br />
Have also a few other questions:<br />
- Is it possible to have an oga with an album in with a mix of songs in flac, vorbis and speexs?<br />
- Is it possible in oga to have a different picture for each song, stream ?<br />
(For when people make their own albums out of different albums and they want the picture of that album for each song.)<br />
<br />
:Again, yes. Theoretically, there is no limitation in what you can put in Ogg and the order you want it in, but while the format has no such limitations, this is not the case with the software out there. So, the short answer is, for the general public it will look as if Ogg cannot do that which you ask even though it can.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 06:58, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
:: Fantastic, please make sure this is included into the libraries of Xiph.org since applications can easily include them.<br />
<br />
== ogg vorbis should never had a v as a first letter but now it's too late, or isn't it? ==<br />
<br />
Many people when they first hear the word vorbis think it's a video codec because of the v.<br />
(My brother thought also and he's like already 15 years old.)<br />
<br />
Mayby people don't store music in vorbis because they think it's for video.<br />
Then they look for software to do the job and can't find anything.<br />
They get mad and look for something else.<br />
<br />
Here is a very radical idea but it would make some things more clearly and prevent mistakes in the future.<br />
Make a NEW codec/file format that's actually vorbis but with another name like m/l/w-orbis. (You guys pick it out)<br />
(But no norbis wrongly typed=nor can cause crash in the wrong place in wrongly constructed software same fo xor(bis) and not gorbis)<br />
There must still be an advantage of the new codec, format because otherwise users won't have a reason to update.<br />
<br />
(The name of course has to sound like vorbis.)<br />
(And mayby make ogg and vorbis and ?orbis more popular in the future.)<br />
<br />
And mime type is then audio/ m/l/w-orbis.<br />
(I'll assume MIME-type is needed because of RTP and native container.)</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:MIME_Types_and_File_Extensions&diff=8207Talk:MIME Types and File Extensions2008-01-29T17:06:17Z<p>Xpete: /* .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album */</p>
<hr />
<div>== .flac - application/flac ==<br />
Why not audio/flac?<br />
<br />
Presumedly to distinguish it from "unencapsulated" flac. I'm not sure this makes sense though. Native flac is a fairly light container, and I suspect the current application/x-flac usage is just an analogy with ogg. OTOH, I don't think anyone's done flac over rtp, where this would be needed, but that is something that's interesting.<br />
<br />
:Edit: I have changed my opinion in this subject. Regardless, Josh agrees with audio/flac in case someone is willing to register it. application/flac was never registered.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:57, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::In a way application/flac to describe a stream which uses FLAC encapsulation is the same as using application/ogg to describe a stream using Ogg encapsulation. I don't really know if this is academic thinking and it's more developer-facing than end-user-facing. The question is what is going to be most consistent (and therefore make sense to someone trying to work it out). Since FLAC in Ogg is natively FLAC encapsulated it may make sense to use the same mime-type for native FLAC as the codec mime type to be used for FLAC in Ogg. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 07:26, 28 June 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== .spx - audio/ogg ==<br />
Why not audio/spx?<br />
To distinguish it from ogg vorbis.<br />
<br />
:audio/speex is only used for Speex RTP or in any other case of "Oggless" Speex. Speex in Ogg, which is a common sight, is audio/ogg just like every other audio-only Ogg file, be it Vorbis, FLAC, Ghost/CELT, MIDI, and even OggPCM.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 07:01, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: Then we still need it for RTP and in native container seems to me.<br />
:: Because of the RTP vorbis and speex should have a unique MIME type right?<br />
:: And also for native container for making correct differences.<br />
:: (One of the greatest mistakes of computer programming is identifying two different things as the same.)<br />
<br />
== ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" ==<br />
<br />
I can't accept that ".ogg" becomes Vorbis I only extension.<br />
Ogg is not a codec. It is the container of codecs.<br />
That change will be missleading people.<br />
<br />
".ogg" has been defined as "application/ogg" and already used as Theora+Vorbis.<br />
Redefining ".ogg" as Vorbis I only extension and changing MIME type to "audio/ogg" is not backward-compatible.<br />
Changing spec should be more carefully.<br />
If possible, should not change fixed spec. (I know becoming RFC does not mean fixed spec. But it is treated as fixed spec) --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 07:31, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:We understand your concern, but application/ogg isn't about audio, and people out there have wrongly associated .ogg with Vorbis only, making it harder for other codecs like Theora to succeed because of the file extension. They do not understand that Ogg is a container; they think Ogg is Vorbis. Although this proposal is somewhat radical and some people aren't 100% happy with it, it's for the best. video/ogg and audio/ogg will also be much useful now with the <video> and <audio> elements of HTML 5.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:04, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::".ogv" and ".oga" may be useful. I can accept this. But changing the definition of ".ogg" is really needed? I can't find the necessity of this. It breaks backward-compatibility. No one will be happy with this change... --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 13:56, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::We are not breaking backwards-comaptibility. That's why Vorbis and Speex will be allowed to use .ogg and .spx instead of .oga. The only thing that may break backwards-compatibility is deprecating application/ogg in favor od video/ogg and audio/ogg. That and Theora files, but since there are no Theora hardware players that we know of, existing Theora files may be renamed to .ogv easily, making compatibility with previous files a non-issue. Backwards-compatibility was seriously considered during the creation of this proposal. We are not breaking it.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:53, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ummmmm..... I think ".ogg" re-definition is not necessary. My best resolution is simply adding the new ext definitions to RFC:<br />
::::* ".ogg" is application/ogg (as RFC3534)<br />
::::* define new ext and MIME : ".ogx", ".oga", ".ogv", etc...<br />
::::* Use of new extensions is recommended.<br />
::::* Official tools are using new ext (except .ogg for Vorbis I?)<br />
::::Changing of ".ogg"'s MIME type is really necessary? --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 16:35, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::: Want also to see more consistent behaviour like changing name of vorbis into something like n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
::::: And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis and ogg would be better instead of ogx <br />
::::: because people refer to ogg as ogg not ogx<br />
::::: Because of RTP and native containers codecs better have unique MIME-types:<br />
::::: Changes: vorbis: still .vorbis would be better(change name to something that doesn't starts with a v, nor, xor or g), <br />
::::: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/vorbis, speex: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/spx<br />
::::: (audio/ogg is being used for .oga and that is stands for ogg audio is very consistent and easy ::::: to see)<br />
::::: <br />
::::: It has to be registered anyway for RTP !!!! <br />
::::: (It wouldn't be such a big assigment now to do that, but over a year or two, <br />
::::: you can't go back anymore because of compatability!!!)<br />
:::::<br />
::::: And people think that vorbis is a video format because it starts with a v.<br />
::::: So they look around if their player supports vorbis video but they find out only audio is supported.<br />
::::: Mad about getting wrong information and quit ogg for an alternative mostly.<br />
::::: Please change the name or create a new format that is essentially vorbis with another name. <br />
::::: (And also something extra to have a reason for people to update.)<br />
::::: (You're goanna have to because of the new ogg framework hahaha!!!!!!)<br />
::::: Or else you get conflict issues and broken compatability !!!<br />
<br />
==text/cmml==<br />
text/cmml for CMML without container: the Codec mime types are to be used in Skeleton, can this mime type be applied to the CMML Ogg mapping? (It's not plain text in the way that Vorbis mapped into Ogg is exactly audio/vorbis.)<br />
<br />
== .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album (also separate pictures for each song? Yes? This is fantastic==<br />
<br />
Can multiple audio streams/files be packed to one oga? <br />
(I mean that there are seperatable flac/speex/vorbis files that can be played separately). <br />
If this is the case then oga is a very good candidate for <br />
ripping a cd with all of it's contents and metadata without loss.<br />
<br />
On a cd there is usually a picture. If you rip the cd to one of Xiph.org's free formats, <br />
it's lost because nothing supports this. <br />
Mayby oga could support this with some extra metadata and pictures in jpeg: <br />
a picture for the .oga and a picture for each number via metadata-system or something like that. <br />
This way someone can easily rip cd's and <br />
keep them in a consistent way on his or her computer. <br />
(One oga per cd, with the same picture as one the cd box, with all the numbers of one cd in oga file that can be played separatelly)<br />
<br />
:Yes, Ogg can carry multiple streams of audio, so you could backup an entire album in Ogg as FLAC or Vorbis and use the .oga extension. In this case alone, it is recommended to use .oga instead of .ogg because .ogg is for a single Vorbis stream file, while .oga requires a Skeleton stream which helps players recognize all the different songs in the file. Confused? One song, .ogg. Multiple songs in one file, .oga. Just make sure that the .oga file has a Skeleton stream. You can verify that with the ogginfo command line tool. And yes, you can also add a JPEG or PNG inside Ogg. I just don't know of any program that supports it, but theoretically it is possible. Just a heads up again, a song and an image are two streams of data, not just one, so again it would use .oga instead of .ogg. This also prevents breaking existing players that don't support embeded images.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:48, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: This sounds great and about streams of audio: <br />
Can I think of those streams also as separate audio files inside a multistream file? <br />
Because flac for example can also do up to eight streams.<br />
<br />
<br />
Have also a few other questions:<br />
- Is it possible to have an oga with an album in with a mix of songs in flac, vorbis and speexs?<br />
- Is it possible in oga to have a different picture for each song, stream ?<br />
(For when people make their own albums out of different albums and they want the picture of that album for each song.)<br />
<br />
:Again, yes. Theoretically, there is no limitation in what you can put in Ogg and the order you want it in, but while the format has no such limitations, this is not the case with the software out there. So, the short answer is, for the general public it will look as if Ogg cannot do that which you ask even though it can.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 06:58, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
:: Fantastic, please make sure this is included into the libraries of Xiph.org since applications can easily include them.<br />
<br />
== ogg vorbis should never had a v as a first letter but now it's too late, or isn't it? ==<br />
<br />
Many people when they first hear the word vorbis think it's a video codec because of the v.<br />
(My brother thought also and he's like already 15 years old.)<br />
<br />
Mayby people don't store music in vorbis because they think it's for video.<br />
Then they look for software to do the job and can't find anything.<br />
They get mad and look for something else.<br />
<br />
Here is a very radical idea but it would make some things more clearly and prevent mistakes in the future.<br />
Make a NEW codec/file format that's actually vorbis but with another name like n/m/l/w-orbis. (You guys pick it out)<br />
There must still be an advantage of the new codec, format because otherwise users won't have a reason to update.<br />
<br />
(The name of course has to sound like vorbis.)<br />
(And mayby make ogg and vorbis and ?orbis more popular in the future.)<br />
<br />
And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
(I'll assume MIME-type is needed because of RTP and native container.)</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:MIME_Types_and_File_Extensions&diff=8206Talk:MIME Types and File Extensions2008-01-29T17:05:11Z<p>Xpete: /* ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" */</p>
<hr />
<div>== .flac - application/flac ==<br />
Why not audio/flac?<br />
<br />
Presumedly to distinguish it from "unencapsulated" flac. I'm not sure this makes sense though. Native flac is a fairly light container, and I suspect the current application/x-flac usage is just an analogy with ogg. OTOH, I don't think anyone's done flac over rtp, where this would be needed, but that is something that's interesting.<br />
<br />
:Edit: I have changed my opinion in this subject. Regardless, Josh agrees with audio/flac in case someone is willing to register it. application/flac was never registered.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:57, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::In a way application/flac to describe a stream which uses FLAC encapsulation is the same as using application/ogg to describe a stream using Ogg encapsulation. I don't really know if this is academic thinking and it's more developer-facing than end-user-facing. The question is what is going to be most consistent (and therefore make sense to someone trying to work it out). Since FLAC in Ogg is natively FLAC encapsulated it may make sense to use the same mime-type for native FLAC as the codec mime type to be used for FLAC in Ogg. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 07:26, 28 June 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== .spx - audio/ogg ==<br />
Why not audio/spx?<br />
To distinguish it from ogg vorbis.<br />
<br />
:audio/speex is only used for Speex RTP or in any other case of "Oggless" Speex. Speex in Ogg, which is a common sight, is audio/ogg just like every other audio-only Ogg file, be it Vorbis, FLAC, Ghost/CELT, MIDI, and even OggPCM.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 07:01, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: Then we still need it for RTP and in native container seems to me.<br />
:: Because of the RTP vorbis and speex should have a unique MIME type right?<br />
:: And also for native container for making correct differences.<br />
:: (One of the greatest mistakes of computer programming is identifying two different things as the same.)<br />
<br />
== ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" ==<br />
<br />
I can't accept that ".ogg" becomes Vorbis I only extension.<br />
Ogg is not a codec. It is the container of codecs.<br />
That change will be missleading people.<br />
<br />
".ogg" has been defined as "application/ogg" and already used as Theora+Vorbis.<br />
Redefining ".ogg" as Vorbis I only extension and changing MIME type to "audio/ogg" is not backward-compatible.<br />
Changing spec should be more carefully.<br />
If possible, should not change fixed spec. (I know becoming RFC does not mean fixed spec. But it is treated as fixed spec) --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 07:31, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:We understand your concern, but application/ogg isn't about audio, and people out there have wrongly associated .ogg with Vorbis only, making it harder for other codecs like Theora to succeed because of the file extension. They do not understand that Ogg is a container; they think Ogg is Vorbis. Although this proposal is somewhat radical and some people aren't 100% happy with it, it's for the best. video/ogg and audio/ogg will also be much useful now with the <video> and <audio> elements of HTML 5.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:04, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::".ogv" and ".oga" may be useful. I can accept this. But changing the definition of ".ogg" is really needed? I can't find the necessity of this. It breaks backward-compatibility. No one will be happy with this change... --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 13:56, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::We are not breaking backwards-comaptibility. That's why Vorbis and Speex will be allowed to use .ogg and .spx instead of .oga. The only thing that may break backwards-compatibility is deprecating application/ogg in favor od video/ogg and audio/ogg. That and Theora files, but since there are no Theora hardware players that we know of, existing Theora files may be renamed to .ogv easily, making compatibility with previous files a non-issue. Backwards-compatibility was seriously considered during the creation of this proposal. We are not breaking it.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:53, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ummmmm..... I think ".ogg" re-definition is not necessary. My best resolution is simply adding the new ext definitions to RFC:<br />
::::* ".ogg" is application/ogg (as RFC3534)<br />
::::* define new ext and MIME : ".ogx", ".oga", ".ogv", etc...<br />
::::* Use of new extensions is recommended.<br />
::::* Official tools are using new ext (except .ogg for Vorbis I?)<br />
::::Changing of ".ogg"'s MIME type is really necessary? --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 16:35, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::: Want also to see more consistent behaviour like changing name of vorbis into something like n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
::::: And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis and ogg would be better instead of ogx <br />
::::: because people refer to ogg as ogg not ogx<br />
::::: Because of RTP and native containers codecs better have unique MIME-types:<br />
::::: Changes: vorbis: still .vorbis would be better(change name to something that doesn't starts with a v, nor, xor or g), <br />
::::: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/vorbis, speex: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/spx<br />
::::: (audio/ogg is being used for .oga and that is stands for ogg audio is very consistent and easy ::::: to see)<br />
::::: <br />
::::: It has to be registered anyway for RTP !!!! <br />
::::: (It wouldn't be such a big assigment now to do that, but over a year or two, <br />
::::: you can't go back anymore because of compatability!!!)<br />
:::::<br />
::::: And people think that vorbis is a video format because it starts with a v.<br />
::::: So they look around if their player supports vorbis video but they find out only audio is supported.<br />
::::: Mad about getting wrong information and quit ogg for an alternative mostly.<br />
::::: Please change the name or create a new format that is essentially vorbis with another name. <br />
::::: (And also something extra to have a reason for people to update.)<br />
::::: (You're goanna have to because of the new ogg framework hahaha!!!!!!)<br />
::::: Or else you get conflict issues and broken compatability !!!<br />
<br />
==text/cmml==<br />
text/cmml for CMML without container: the Codec mime types are to be used in Skeleton, can this mime type be applied to the CMML Ogg mapping? (It's not plain text in the way that Vorbis mapped into Ogg is exactly audio/vorbis.)<br />
<br />
== .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album ==<br />
<br />
Can multiple audio streams/files be packed to one oga? <br />
(I mean that there are seperatable flac/speex/vorbis files that can be played separately). <br />
If this is the case then oga is a very good candidate for <br />
ripping a cd with all of it's contents and metadata without loss.<br />
<br />
On a cd there is usually a picture. If you rip the cd to one of Xiph.org's free formats, <br />
it's lost because nothing supports this. <br />
Mayby oga could support this with some extra metadata and pictures in jpeg: <br />
a picture for the .oga and a picture for each number via metadata-system or something like that. <br />
This way someone can easily rip cd's and <br />
keep them in a consistent way on his or her computer. <br />
(One oga per cd, with the same picture as one the cd box, with all the numbers of one cd in oga file that can be played separatelly)<br />
<br />
:Yes, Ogg can carry multiple streams of audio, so you could backup an entire album in Ogg as FLAC or Vorbis and use the .oga extension. In this case alone, it is recommended to use .oga instead of .ogg because .ogg is for a single Vorbis stream file, while .oga requires a Skeleton stream which helps players recognize all the different songs in the file. Confused? One song, .ogg. Multiple songs in one file, .oga. Just make sure that the .oga file has a Skeleton stream. You can verify that with the ogginfo command line tool. And yes, you can also add a JPEG or PNG inside Ogg. I just don't know of any program that supports it, but theoretically it is possible. Just a heads up again, a song and an image are two streams of data, not just one, so again it would use .oga instead of .ogg. This also prevents breaking existing players that don't support embeded images.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:48, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: This sounds great and about streams of audio: <br />
Can I think of those streams also as separate audio files inside a multistream file? <br />
Because flac for example can also do up to eight streams.<br />
<br />
<br />
Have also a few other questions:<br />
- Is it possible to have an oga with an album in with a mix of songs in flac, vorbis and speexs?<br />
- Is it possible in oga to have a different picture for each song, stream ?<br />
(For when people make their own albums out of different albums and they want the picture of that album for each song.)<br />
<br />
:Again, yes. Theoretically, there is no limitation in what you can put in Ogg and the order you want it in, but while the format has no such limitations, this is not the case with the software out there. So, the short answer is, for the general public it will look as if Ogg cannot do that which you ask even though it can.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 06:58, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
:: Fantastic, please make sure this is included into the libraries of Xiph.org since applications can easily include them.<br />
<br />
== ogg vorbis should never had a v as a first letter but now it's too late, or isn't it? ==<br />
<br />
Many people when they first hear the word vorbis think it's a video codec because of the v.<br />
(My brother thought also and he's like already 15 years old.)<br />
<br />
Mayby people don't store music in vorbis because they think it's for video.<br />
Then they look for software to do the job and can't find anything.<br />
They get mad and look for something else.<br />
<br />
Here is a very radical idea but it would make some things more clearly and prevent mistakes in the future.<br />
Make a NEW codec/file format that's actually vorbis but with another name like n/m/l/w-orbis. (You guys pick it out)<br />
There must still be an advantage of the new codec, format because otherwise users won't have a reason to update.<br />
<br />
(The name of course has to sound like vorbis.)<br />
(And mayby make ogg and vorbis and ?orbis more popular in the future.)<br />
<br />
And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
(I'll assume MIME-type is needed because of RTP and native container.)</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:Vorbis&diff=8205Talk:Vorbis2008-01-29T16:52:02Z<p>Xpete: /* change name of successor of vorbis into something that does NOT begins with a V */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Question ==<br />
<br />
What about non-standard encoders and tunings?<br />
<br />
Shouldn't you make a page about how to encode vorbis files?<br />
<br />
[JohnRipley] How about a list of third party implementations of the Vorbis codec itself? For example: JOrbis, and mine :)<br />
<br />
== Windows Media Player Encoding ==<br />
<br />
[cparker] I'd like to know how to enable Windows Media Player to encode vorbis files directly from the "Rip" tab. I'm using Windows Media Player 9-10. I checked vorbis.com[http://vorbis.com], and it appears to be quite outdated. (It makes a reference to irc.xiph.org.)<br />
<br />
== HW requirements ? ==<br />
<br />
[xerces8] What CPU power (in terms of popular PC CPUs) is required for realtime decoding of Vorbis ?<br />
Does tremor require more/less time/space as the "classic" version ?<br />
(I plan to purchase a used laptop to use as a Vorbis playing station, so I need to know, thanks)<br />
<br />
== RE: HW requirements ? ==<br />
<br />
> What CPU power required for realtime decoding of Vorbis<br />
<br />
Why don't you test ? 100 MHz Pentium 1 (just a guess)<br />
<br />
> Does tremor require more/less time/space as the "classic" version ?<br />
<br />
Space: same/irrelevant/unreproductable (???), time: probably slightly slower<br />
<br />
[[User:DOS386|DOS386]] 15:21, 19 October 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Merge proposal ==<br />
<br />
Any reason for this:<br />
<br />
* [[VorbisSoftwareEncoders]]: List of libvorbis frontends<br />
* [[VorbisEncoders]]: List of encoders (e.g. Xiph, aoTuV, GT, vorbis-java)<br />
<br />
Merge them ? [[User:DOS386|DOS386]] 15:21, 19 October 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:I guess that's a solution.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 11:16, 20 October 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
== change name of successor of vorbis into something that does NOT begins with a V ==<br />
Please change the name of Vorbis 2 into something that does NOT begins with a V<br />
Unexperienced people might think that vorbis is for video because of the V.<br />
<br />
(Not worbis or norbis: w is pronounced like v so theres mistaking again and when typing norbis without bis it's nor and that's a certain way of blending so the computer might have problems if pasted in the wrong place unprotected or buggy programs.)</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:Vorbis&diff=8204Talk:Vorbis2008-01-29T16:49:17Z<p>Xpete: /* change name of successor of vorbis into something that does NOT begins with a V */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Question ==<br />
<br />
What about non-standard encoders and tunings?<br />
<br />
Shouldn't you make a page about how to encode vorbis files?<br />
<br />
[JohnRipley] How about a list of third party implementations of the Vorbis codec itself? For example: JOrbis, and mine :)<br />
<br />
== Windows Media Player Encoding ==<br />
<br />
[cparker] I'd like to know how to enable Windows Media Player to encode vorbis files directly from the "Rip" tab. I'm using Windows Media Player 9-10. I checked vorbis.com[http://vorbis.com], and it appears to be quite outdated. (It makes a reference to irc.xiph.org.)<br />
<br />
== HW requirements ? ==<br />
<br />
[xerces8] What CPU power (in terms of popular PC CPUs) is required for realtime decoding of Vorbis ?<br />
Does tremor require more/less time/space as the "classic" version ?<br />
(I plan to purchase a used laptop to use as a Vorbis playing station, so I need to know, thanks)<br />
<br />
== RE: HW requirements ? ==<br />
<br />
> What CPU power required for realtime decoding of Vorbis<br />
<br />
Why don't you test ? 100 MHz Pentium 1 (just a guess)<br />
<br />
> Does tremor require more/less time/space as the "classic" version ?<br />
<br />
Space: same/irrelevant/unreproductable (???), time: probably slightly slower<br />
<br />
[[User:DOS386|DOS386]] 15:21, 19 October 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Merge proposal ==<br />
<br />
Any reason for this:<br />
<br />
* [[VorbisSoftwareEncoders]]: List of libvorbis frontends<br />
* [[VorbisEncoders]]: List of encoders (e.g. Xiph, aoTuV, GT, vorbis-java)<br />
<br />
Merge them ? [[User:DOS386|DOS386]] 15:21, 19 October 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:I guess that's a solution.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 11:16, 20 October 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
== change name of successor of vorbis into something that does NOT begins with a V ==<br />
Please change the name of Vorbis 2 into something that does NOT begins with a V<br />
Unexperienced people might think that vorbis is for video because of the V.<br />
<br />
(Not worbis or norbis: w is pronounced like v so theres mistaking again and when typing norbis without bis it's nor and that's a certain way of blending so the computer might have problems if pasted in unprotected or buggy programs.)</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&diff=8203Talk:Main Page2008-01-28T18:25:51Z<p>Xpete: added question, subject</p>
<hr />
<div>According to [[Special:Popularpages]], the various pages in the Demonstration section are the most visited parts of the wiki, so I moved that section to the top of the main page. --[[User:Andrel|Andrel]] 09:19, 26 April 2006 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Work in Progress ==<br />
<br />
It's not clear on first view (to me at least) that<br />
[[Main Page#Work in Progress]] is a link to<br />
[[Work In Progress]] (as none of the other section headings<br />
are). Possibly it should be a normal heading with the link<br />
in a short text below (à la [[Main Page#Other software]]).<br />
<br />
[[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 05:22, 1 February 2006 (PST)<br />
<br />
You are free to fix that. It's a wiki after all -- [[User:Jmspeex|Jmspeex]] 19:22, 1 February 2006 (PST)<br />
<br />
Done (just didn't want to trample all over the front page) -- [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 04:33, 2 February 2006 (PST)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Lock This Page ==<br />
<br />
On all/most other wikis the Main Page is locked so only admins can edit it. Due to the amount of vandalism, I think the [[Main Page]] should be locked and all changes discussed here. --[[User:SonicChao|SonicChao]] 05:11, 27 August 2006 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Missing Item on Page ==<br />
OggUVS isn't mentioned, please add this.<br />
<br />
<br />
== Paranoia / cdparanoia ==<br />
<br />
Why is there no listing under software of paranoia or cdparanoia? Also, there is no listing on the main xiph.org page. Is that software acknowlegded? --[[User:WhiteDragon|WhiteDragon]] 19:52, 9 September 2006 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Suggestion :-O ==<br />
First I want to congratulate you on the wonderful work being done. Thank you very much :-)<br />
Please allow anonymous edits (like wikipedia does) b'caus i'm too lazy to login :-)<br />
<br />
:I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the ton of hidden links I just culled has nothing to do with you... I can't speak for the people running Xiph but requiring a login reduces some of the flood of spam that shows up here, and Wikipedia has many more resources available to deal with it than this wiki does. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 06:06, 24 November 2006 (PST)<br />
<br />
== Proposal for a developer section ==<br />
<br />
As more developers start to "get it" about how ultra cool Ogg / Vorbis / Theora / etc is, wouldn't it be great to have a wiki section devoted to helping these budding programmers along? eg: i've written some nice code i'd be happy to share. Could contain a programming FAQ, how-to's, and real code. Thoughts? [[User:Davec|Davec]] 13:44, 6 December 2006 (PST)<br />
<br />
== Why CamelCase? ==<br />
<br />
MediaWiki supports free links, why are most page titles in the CamelCase format? - [[User:Sikon|Sikon]] 05:34, 27 February 2007 (PST)<br />
:CamelCase? I don't see what you mean. If you think something's wrong, you may go ahead and change it. That's what wikis are for.--[[User:Saoshyant|Saoshyant]] 05:37, 27 February 2007 (PST)<br />
:[[WhatHappened|Historical reasons]]. The original wiki used software that only supported [http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?CamelCase CamelCase]. For new pages it is fine to use free links. I suggest not renaming pages, as many of them have good search ranking. [[User:Andrel|Andrel]] 07:03, 27 February 2007 (PST)<br />
I see now. And thanks for the WhatHappened link, Andrel. I managed to recover two pages so far from web archive. I wonder if I'll savage it further.--[[User:Saoshyant|Saoshyant]] 08:28, 27 February 2007 (PST)<br />
<br />
== ICECast2 vs vBulletin ==<br />
<br />
Hi there,<br />
Fisrt let me thank you all the great work and the self performance over the ICECast streaming server<br />
<br />
I also Wonder if anyone had included ICECast directly into a vBulletin board having it worked from there on ..meaning enbable to use same username,permission and prefference from the database itself running on MySQL 5 having as if setting permission on for a usergroupe from there to enable them streaming out on your ICECast server and others can apply and yet just participate into the main forum itself<br />
<br />
I do have both running-up over my dedicated server now meanwhile if any would want to help me out creating like this hack or template am willing to give them all access for working over it <br />
can YOU imagine how friendly and powerful that ICECast would mean then<br />
<br />
hey give me a shout if willing to try it<br />
<br />
admin@gysmo.net<br />
<br />
== News ==<br />
<br />
Hi,<br />
<br />
I would really strongly suggest adding this to your news items... Someone has made a graphical interface for ffmpeg2theora at http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Video/Other-VIDEO-Tools/GFrontEnd-for-ffmpeg2theora.shtml<br />
<br />
I don't know the technical difficulties of building such a tool, but regardless, the ability for a common Windows user like myself to be able to just easily convert a proprietary file format to Ogg-Theora is really cool... I tested it out on the sample WMV file that came with this laptop, and the converted file worked great in Cortado... Of course, news about programs that allow one to record directly to Ogg-Theora would be even better, but this is still very important, imo... [[User:Brettz9|Brettz9]] 20:56, 4 July 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== .NET :-( ==<br />
<br />
> I would really strongly suggest adding this to your news items<br />
<br />
Check it out: > Requirements: .NET Framework 2.0<br />
<br />
Also, with 1.5 MiB size it's bigger than FFMPEG2THEORA itself (1.3 MiB after recompressing with UPX 3.0 --ultra-brute) - not that VERY good IMHO.<br />
<br />
: Sorry, do you mean MB as in Megabytes? That's a drop in the bucket of most hard drives nowadays, no? And .NET was already on my system for something I had downloaded earlier (not sure what, but maybe others may have it already too). My interest in seeing it announced is not how well it is implemented--if there are better alternatives let them be known--but that such a tool exists and it works (at least if you get the requirements).<br />
<br />
== MiB ||| .NET ==<br />
<br />
> Sorry, do you mean MB as in Megabytes?<br />
<br />
NO. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_prefix]]<br />
<br />
> And .NET was already on my system for something I had downloaded earlier (not sure what, but maybe others may have it already too)<br />
<br />
I don't have .NET and don't like it :-( Finally, the important thing is the FFMPEG2THEOA core and it works perfectly for me without .NET ;-)<br />
<br />
== Link to Games in Demonstrations Section? ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't there be a link to [[Games_that_use_Theora]] in the section with other demonstrations? Maybe there's not enough games listed on the page to warrant it?<br />
--[[User:Sim9|Sim9]] 11:47, 27 October 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:Yes. There's only two games listed right now. I'm pretty sure there's more out there. Sim9, can you help us listing more games?--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 11:56, 28 October 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::I'm sure you're right, there ''has'' to be more than two. Theora (and Vorbis) is now by default included in the Torque game engine, so there must be a lot of games using it by now. I just polled the Torque community to see if they know of any to help us fill up the list with some successful integrations! --[[User:Sim9|Sim9]] 19:02, 29 October 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Add xvid it's opensource ==<br />
Please add xvid to choosable video format in ogv and others.<br />
It's an open source, mature codec and doesn't have encoder problems theora currently has.<br />
Embedding it makes possible to show off ogv files with a codec that shows the tru power of ogv.<br />
<br />
Please make it possible to put this in, so .ogv can be used immediatelly with xvid and vorbis/speex/flac to create a mature and temporary solution until theora 1.0 hits the digital streets.</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:MIME_Types_and_File_Extensions&diff=8182Talk:MIME Types and File Extensions2008-01-26T17:17:27Z<p>Xpete: /* ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" */</p>
<hr />
<div>== .flac - application/flac ==<br />
Why not audio/flac?<br />
<br />
Presumedly to distinguish it from "unencapsulated" flac. I'm not sure this makes sense though. Native flac is a fairly light container, and I suspect the current application/x-flac usage is just an analogy with ogg. OTOH, I don't think anyone's done flac over rtp, where this would be needed, but that is something that's interesting.<br />
<br />
:Edit: I have changed my opinion in this subject. Regardless, Josh agrees with audio/flac in case someone is willing to register it. application/flac was never registered.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:57, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::In a way application/flac to describe a stream which uses FLAC encapsulation is the same as using application/ogg to describe a stream using Ogg encapsulation. I don't really know if this is academic thinking and it's more developer-facing than end-user-facing. The question is what is going to be most consistent (and therefore make sense to someone trying to work it out). Since FLAC in Ogg is natively FLAC encapsulated it may make sense to use the same mime-type for native FLAC as the codec mime type to be used for FLAC in Ogg. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 07:26, 28 June 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== .spx - audio/ogg ==<br />
Why not audio/spx?<br />
To distinguish it from ogg vorbis.<br />
<br />
:audio/speex is only used for Speex RTP or in any other case of "Oggless" Speex. Speex in Ogg, which is a common sight, is audio/ogg just like every other audio-only Ogg file, be it Vorbis, FLAC, Ghost/CELT, MIDI, and even OggPCM.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 07:01, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: Then we still need it for RTP and in native container seems to me.<br />
:: Because of the RTP vorbis and speex should have a unique MIME type right?<br />
:: And also for native container for making correct differences.<br />
:: (One of the greatest mistakes of computer programming is identifying two different things as the same.)<br />
<br />
== ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" ==<br />
<br />
I can't accept that ".ogg" becomes Vorbis I only extension.<br />
Ogg is not a codec. It is the container of codecs.<br />
That change will be missleading people.<br />
<br />
".ogg" has been defined as "application/ogg" and already used as Theora+Vorbis.<br />
Redefining ".ogg" as Vorbis I only extension and changing MIME type to "audio/ogg" is not backward-compatible.<br />
Changing spec should be more carefully.<br />
If possible, should not change fixed spec. (I know becoming RFC does not mean fixed spec. But it is treated as fixed spec) --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 07:31, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:We understand your concern, but application/ogg isn't about audio, and people out there have wrongly associated .ogg with Vorbis only, making it harder for other codecs like Theora to succeed because of the file extension. They do not understand that Ogg is a container; they think Ogg is Vorbis. Although this proposal is somewhat radical and some people aren't 100% happy with it, it's for the best. video/ogg and audio/ogg will also be much useful now with the <video> and <audio> elements of HTML 5.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:04, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::".ogv" and ".oga" may be useful. I can accept this. But changing the definition of ".ogg" is really needed? I can't find the necessity of this. It breaks backward-compatibility. No one will be happy with this change... --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 13:56, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::We are not breaking backwards-comaptibility. That's why Vorbis and Speex will be allowed to use .ogg and .spx instead of .oga. The only thing that may break backwards-compatibility is deprecating application/ogg in favor od video/ogg and audio/ogg. That and Theora files, but since there are no Theora hardware players that we know of, existing Theora files may be renamed to .ogv easily, making compatibility with previous files a non-issue. Backwards-compatibility was seriously considered during the creation of this proposal. We are not breaking it.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:53, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ummmmm..... I think ".ogg" re-definition is not necessary. My best resolution is simply adding the new ext definitions to RFC:<br />
::::* ".ogg" is application/ogg (as RFC3534)<br />
::::* define new ext and MIME : ".ogx", ".oga", ".ogv", etc...<br />
::::* Use of new extensions is recommended.<br />
::::* Official tools are using new ext (except .ogg for Vorbis I?)<br />
::::Changing of ".ogg"'s MIME type is really necessary? --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 16:35, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::: Want also to see more consistent behaviour like changing name of vorbis into something like n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
::::: And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis and ogg would be better instead of ogx <br />
::::: because people refer to ogg as ogg not ogx<br />
::::: Because of RTP and native containers codecs better have unique MIME-types:<br />
::::: Changes: vorbis: still .vorbis would be better(change name to something that doesn't starts with a v or g), <br />
::::: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/vorbis, speex: MIME: audio/ogg => audio/spx<br />
::::: (audio/ogg is being used for .oga and that is stands for ogg audio is very consistent and easy to see)<br />
:::::<br />
::::: And people think that vorbis is a video format because it starts with a v.<br />
::::: So they look around if their player supports vorbis video but they find out only audio is supported.<br />
::::: Mad about getting wrong information and quit ogg for an alternative mostly.<br />
::::: Please change the name or create a new format that is essentially vorbis with another name. <br />
::::: (And also something extra to have a reason for people to update.)<br />
<br />
==text/cmml==<br />
text/cmml for CMML without container: the Codec mime types are to be used in Skeleton, can this mime type be applied to the CMML Ogg mapping? (It's not plain text in the way that Vorbis mapped into Ogg is exactly audio/vorbis.)<br />
<br />
== .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album ==<br />
<br />
Can multiple audio streams/files be packed to one oga? <br />
(I mean that there are seperatable flac/speex/vorbis files that can be played separately). <br />
If this is the case then oga is a very good candidate for <br />
ripping a cd with all of it's contents and metadata without loss.<br />
<br />
On a cd there is usually a picture. If you rip the cd to one of Xiph.org's free formats, <br />
it's lost because nothing supports this. <br />
Mayby oga could support this with some extra metadata and pictures in jpeg: <br />
a picture for the .oga and a picture for each number via metadata-system or something like that. <br />
This way someone can easily rip cd's and <br />
keep them in a consistent way on his or her computer. <br />
(One oga per cd, with the same picture as one the cd box, with all the numbers of one cd in oga file that can be played separatelly)<br />
<br />
:Yes, Ogg can carry multiple streams of audio, so you could backup an entire album in Ogg as FLAC or Vorbis and use the .oga extension. In this case alone, it is recommended to use .oga instead of .ogg because .ogg is for a single Vorbis stream file, while .oga requires a Skeleton stream which helps players recognize all the different songs in the file. Confused? One song, .ogg. Multiple songs in one file, .oga. Just make sure that the .oga file has a Skeleton stream. You can verify that with the ogginfo command line tool. And yes, you can also add a JPEG or PNG inside Ogg. I just don't know of any program that supports it, but theoretically it is possible. Just a heads up again, a song and an image are two streams of data, not just one, so again it would use .oga instead of .ogg. This also prevents breaking existing players that don't support embeded images.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:48, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: This sounds great and about streams of audio: <br />
Can I think of those streams also as separate audio files inside a multistream file? <br />
Because flac for example can also do up to eight streams.<br />
<br />
<br />
Have also a few other questions:<br />
- Is it possible to have an oga with an album in with a mix of songs in flac, vorbis and speexs?<br />
- Is it possible in oga to have a different picture for each song, stream ?<br />
(For when people make their own albums out of different albums and they want the picture of that album for each song.)<br />
<br />
:Again, yes. Theoretically, there is no limitation in what you can put in Ogg and the order you want it in, but while the format has no such limitations, this is not the case with the software out there. So, the short answer is, for the general public it will look as if Ogg cannot do that which you ask even though it can.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 06:58, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
:: Fantastic, please make sure this is included into the libraries of Xiph.org since applications can easily include them.<br />
<br />
== ogg vorbis should never had a v as a first letter but now it's too late, or isn't it? ==<br />
<br />
Many people when they first hear the word vorbis think it's a video codec because of the v.<br />
(My brother thought also and he's like already 15 years old.)<br />
<br />
Mayby people don't store music in vorbis because they think it's for video.<br />
Then they look for software to do the job and can't find anything.<br />
They get mad and look for something else.<br />
<br />
Here is a very radical idea but it would make some things more clearly and prevent mistakes in the future.<br />
Make a NEW codec/file format that's actually vorbis but with another name like n/m/l/w-orbis. (You guys pick it out)<br />
There must still be an advantage of the new codec, format because otherwise users won't have a reason to update.<br />
<br />
(The name of course has to sound like vorbis.)<br />
(And mayby make ogg and vorbis and ?orbis more popular in the future.)<br />
<br />
And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
(I'll assume MIME-type is needed because of RTP and native container.)</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:MIME_Types_and_File_Extensions&diff=8181Talk:MIME Types and File Extensions2008-01-26T17:10:24Z<p>Xpete: /* .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album */</p>
<hr />
<div>== .flac - application/flac ==<br />
Why not audio/flac?<br />
<br />
Presumedly to distinguish it from "unencapsulated" flac. I'm not sure this makes sense though. Native flac is a fairly light container, and I suspect the current application/x-flac usage is just an analogy with ogg. OTOH, I don't think anyone's done flac over rtp, where this would be needed, but that is something that's interesting.<br />
<br />
:Edit: I have changed my opinion in this subject. Regardless, Josh agrees with audio/flac in case someone is willing to register it. application/flac was never registered.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:57, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::In a way application/flac to describe a stream which uses FLAC encapsulation is the same as using application/ogg to describe a stream using Ogg encapsulation. I don't really know if this is academic thinking and it's more developer-facing than end-user-facing. The question is what is going to be most consistent (and therefore make sense to someone trying to work it out). Since FLAC in Ogg is natively FLAC encapsulated it may make sense to use the same mime-type for native FLAC as the codec mime type to be used for FLAC in Ogg. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 07:26, 28 June 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== .spx - audio/ogg ==<br />
Why not audio/spx?<br />
To distinguish it from ogg vorbis.<br />
<br />
:audio/speex is only used for Speex RTP or in any other case of "Oggless" Speex. Speex in Ogg, which is a common sight, is audio/ogg just like every other audio-only Ogg file, be it Vorbis, FLAC, Ghost/CELT, MIDI, and even OggPCM.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 07:01, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: Then we still need it for RTP and in native container seems to me.<br />
:: Because of the RTP vorbis and speex should have a unique MIME type right?<br />
:: And also for native container for making correct differences.<br />
:: (One of the greatest mistakes of computer programming is identifying two different things as the same.)<br />
<br />
== ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" ==<br />
<br />
I can't accept that ".ogg" becomes Vorbis I only extension.<br />
Ogg is not a codec. It is the container of codecs.<br />
That change will be missleading people.<br />
<br />
".ogg" has been defined as "application/ogg" and already used as Theora+Vorbis.<br />
Redefining ".ogg" as Vorbis I only extension and changing MIME type to "audio/ogg" is not backward-compatible.<br />
Changing spec should be more carefully.<br />
If possible, should not change fixed spec. (I know becoming RFC does not mean fixed spec. But it is treated as fixed spec) --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 07:31, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:We understand your concern, but application/ogg isn't about audio, and people out there have wrongly associated .ogg with Vorbis only, making it harder for other codecs like Theora to succeed because of the file extension. They do not understand that Ogg is a container; they think Ogg is Vorbis. Although this proposal is somewhat radical and some people aren't 100% happy with it, it's for the best. video/ogg and audio/ogg will also be much useful now with the <video> and <audio> elements of HTML 5.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:04, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::".ogv" and ".oga" may be useful. I can accept this. But changing the definition of ".ogg" is really needed? I can't find the necessity of this. It breaks backward-compatibility. No one will be happy with this change... --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 13:56, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::We are not breaking backwards-comaptibility. That's why Vorbis and Speex will be allowed to use .ogg and .spx instead of .oga. The only thing that may break backwards-compatibility is deprecating application/ogg in favor od video/ogg and audio/ogg. That and Theora files, but since there are no Theora hardware players that we know of, existing Theora files may be renamed to .ogv easily, making compatibility with previous files a non-issue. Backwards-compatibility was seriously considered during the creation of this proposal. We are not breaking it.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:53, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ummmmm..... I think ".ogg" re-definition is not necessary. My best resolution is simply adding the new ext definitions to RFC:<br />
::::* ".ogg" is application/ogg (as RFC3534)<br />
::::* define new ext and MIME : ".ogx", ".oga", ".ogv", etc...<br />
::::* Use of new extensions is recommended.<br />
::::* Official tools are using new ext (except .ogg for Vorbis I?)<br />
::::Changing of ".ogg"'s MIME type is really necessary? --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 16:35, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::: Want also to see more consistent behaviour like changing name of vorbis into something like n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
::::: And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis and ogg would be better instead of ogx <br />
::::: because people refer to ogg as ogg not ogx<br />
::::: And people think that vorbis is a video format because it starts with a v.<br />
::::: So they look around if their player supports vorbis video but they find out only audio is supported.<br />
::::: Mad about getting wrong information and quit ogg for an alternative mostly.<br />
::::: Please change the name or create a new format that is essentially vorbis with another name. <br />
::::: (And also something extra to have a reason for people to update.)<br />
<br />
==text/cmml==<br />
text/cmml for CMML without container: the Codec mime types are to be used in Skeleton, can this mime type be applied to the CMML Ogg mapping? (It's not plain text in the way that Vorbis mapped into Ogg is exactly audio/vorbis.)<br />
<br />
== .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album ==<br />
<br />
Can multiple audio streams/files be packed to one oga? <br />
(I mean that there are seperatable flac/speex/vorbis files that can be played separately). <br />
If this is the case then oga is a very good candidate for <br />
ripping a cd with all of it's contents and metadata without loss.<br />
<br />
On a cd there is usually a picture. If you rip the cd to one of Xiph.org's free formats, <br />
it's lost because nothing supports this. <br />
Mayby oga could support this with some extra metadata and pictures in jpeg: <br />
a picture for the .oga and a picture for each number via metadata-system or something like that. <br />
This way someone can easily rip cd's and <br />
keep them in a consistent way on his or her computer. <br />
(One oga per cd, with the same picture as one the cd box, with all the numbers of one cd in oga file that can be played separatelly)<br />
<br />
:Yes, Ogg can carry multiple streams of audio, so you could backup an entire album in Ogg as FLAC or Vorbis and use the .oga extension. In this case alone, it is recommended to use .oga instead of .ogg because .ogg is for a single Vorbis stream file, while .oga requires a Skeleton stream which helps players recognize all the different songs in the file. Confused? One song, .ogg. Multiple songs in one file, .oga. Just make sure that the .oga file has a Skeleton stream. You can verify that with the ogginfo command line tool. And yes, you can also add a JPEG or PNG inside Ogg. I just don't know of any program that supports it, but theoretically it is possible. Just a heads up again, a song and an image are two streams of data, not just one, so again it would use .oga instead of .ogg. This also prevents breaking existing players that don't support embeded images.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:48, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: This sounds great and about streams of audio: <br />
Can I think of those streams also as separate audio files inside a multistream file? <br />
Because flac for example can also do up to eight streams.<br />
<br />
<br />
Have also a few other questions:<br />
- Is it possible to have an oga with an album in with a mix of songs in flac, vorbis and speexs?<br />
- Is it possible in oga to have a different picture for each song, stream ?<br />
(For when people make their own albums out of different albums and they want the picture of that album for each song.)<br />
<br />
:Again, yes. Theoretically, there is no limitation in what you can put in Ogg and the order you want it in, but while the format has no such limitations, this is not the case with the software out there. So, the short answer is, for the general public it will look as if Ogg cannot do that which you ask even though it can.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 06:58, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
:: Fantastic, please make sure this is included into the libraries of Xiph.org since applications can easily include them.<br />
<br />
== ogg vorbis should never had a v as a first letter but now it's too late, or isn't it? ==<br />
<br />
Many people when they first hear the word vorbis think it's a video codec because of the v.<br />
(My brother thought also and he's like already 15 years old.)<br />
<br />
Mayby people don't store music in vorbis because they think it's for video.<br />
Then they look for software to do the job and can't find anything.<br />
They get mad and look for something else.<br />
<br />
Here is a very radical idea but it would make some things more clearly and prevent mistakes in the future.<br />
Make a NEW codec/file format that's actually vorbis but with another name like n/m/l/w-orbis. (You guys pick it out)<br />
There must still be an advantage of the new codec, format because otherwise users won't have a reason to update.<br />
<br />
(The name of course has to sound like vorbis.)<br />
(And mayby make ogg and vorbis and ?orbis more popular in the future.)<br />
<br />
And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
(I'll assume MIME-type is needed because of RTP and native container.)</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:MIME_Types_and_File_Extensions&diff=8180Talk:MIME Types and File Extensions2008-01-26T17:10:06Z<p>Xpete: /* ogg vorbis should never had a v as a first letter but now it's too late, or isn't it? */</p>
<hr />
<div>== .flac - application/flac ==<br />
Why not audio/flac?<br />
<br />
Presumedly to distinguish it from "unencapsulated" flac. I'm not sure this makes sense though. Native flac is a fairly light container, and I suspect the current application/x-flac usage is just an analogy with ogg. OTOH, I don't think anyone's done flac over rtp, where this would be needed, but that is something that's interesting.<br />
<br />
:Edit: I have changed my opinion in this subject. Regardless, Josh agrees with audio/flac in case someone is willing to register it. application/flac was never registered.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:57, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::In a way application/flac to describe a stream which uses FLAC encapsulation is the same as using application/ogg to describe a stream using Ogg encapsulation. I don't really know if this is academic thinking and it's more developer-facing than end-user-facing. The question is what is going to be most consistent (and therefore make sense to someone trying to work it out). Since FLAC in Ogg is natively FLAC encapsulated it may make sense to use the same mime-type for native FLAC as the codec mime type to be used for FLAC in Ogg. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 07:26, 28 June 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== .spx - audio/ogg ==<br />
Why not audio/spx?<br />
To distinguish it from ogg vorbis.<br />
<br />
:audio/speex is only used for Speex RTP or in any other case of "Oggless" Speex. Speex in Ogg, which is a common sight, is audio/ogg just like every other audio-only Ogg file, be it Vorbis, FLAC, Ghost/CELT, MIDI, and even OggPCM.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 07:01, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: Then we still need it for RTP and in native container seems to me.<br />
:: Because of the RTP vorbis and speex should have a unique MIME type right?<br />
:: And also for native container for making correct differences.<br />
:: (One of the greatest mistakes of computer programming is identifying two different things as the same.)<br />
<br />
== ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" ==<br />
<br />
I can't accept that ".ogg" becomes Vorbis I only extension.<br />
Ogg is not a codec. It is the container of codecs.<br />
That change will be missleading people.<br />
<br />
".ogg" has been defined as "application/ogg" and already used as Theora+Vorbis.<br />
Redefining ".ogg" as Vorbis I only extension and changing MIME type to "audio/ogg" is not backward-compatible.<br />
Changing spec should be more carefully.<br />
If possible, should not change fixed spec. (I know becoming RFC does not mean fixed spec. But it is treated as fixed spec) --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 07:31, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:We understand your concern, but application/ogg isn't about audio, and people out there have wrongly associated .ogg with Vorbis only, making it harder for other codecs like Theora to succeed because of the file extension. They do not understand that Ogg is a container; they think Ogg is Vorbis. Although this proposal is somewhat radical and some people aren't 100% happy with it, it's for the best. video/ogg and audio/ogg will also be much useful now with the <video> and <audio> elements of HTML 5.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:04, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::".ogv" and ".oga" may be useful. I can accept this. But changing the definition of ".ogg" is really needed? I can't find the necessity of this. It breaks backward-compatibility. No one will be happy with this change... --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 13:56, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::We are not breaking backwards-comaptibility. That's why Vorbis and Speex will be allowed to use .ogg and .spx instead of .oga. The only thing that may break backwards-compatibility is deprecating application/ogg in favor od video/ogg and audio/ogg. That and Theora files, but since there are no Theora hardware players that we know of, existing Theora files may be renamed to .ogv easily, making compatibility with previous files a non-issue. Backwards-compatibility was seriously considered during the creation of this proposal. We are not breaking it.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:53, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ummmmm..... I think ".ogg" re-definition is not necessary. My best resolution is simply adding the new ext definitions to RFC:<br />
::::* ".ogg" is application/ogg (as RFC3534)<br />
::::* define new ext and MIME : ".ogx", ".oga", ".ogv", etc...<br />
::::* Use of new extensions is recommended.<br />
::::* Official tools are using new ext (except .ogg for Vorbis I?)<br />
::::Changing of ".ogg"'s MIME type is really necessary? --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 16:35, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::: Want also to see more consistent behaviour like changing name of vorbis into something like n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
::::: And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis and ogg would be better instead of ogx <br />
::::: because people refer to ogg as ogg not ogx<br />
::::: And people think that vorbis is a video format because it starts with a v.<br />
::::: So they look around if their player supports vorbis video but they find out only audio is supported.<br />
::::: Mad about getting wrong information and quit ogg for an alternative mostly.<br />
::::: Please change the name or create a new format that is essentially vorbis with another name. <br />
::::: (And also something extra to have a reason for people to update.)<br />
<br />
==text/cmml==<br />
text/cmml for CMML without container: the Codec mime types are to be used in Skeleton, can this mime type be applied to the CMML Ogg mapping? (It's not plain text in the way that Vorbis mapped into Ogg is exactly audio/vorbis.)<br />
<br />
== .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album ==<br />
<br />
Can multiple audio streams/files be packed to one oga? <br />
(I mean that there are seperatable flac/speex/vorbis files that can be played separately). <br />
If this is the case then oga is a very good candidate for <br />
ripping a cd with all of it's contents and metadata without loss.<br />
<br />
On a cd there is usually a picture. If you rip the cd to one of Xiph.org's free formats, <br />
it's lost because nothing supports this. <br />
Mayby oga could support this with some extra metadata and pictures in jpeg: <br />
a picture for the .oga and a picture for each number via metadata-system or something like that. <br />
This way someone can easily rip cd's and <br />
keep them in a consistent way on his or her computer. <br />
(One oga per cd, with the same picture as one the cd box, with all the numbers of one cd in oga file that can be played separatelly)<br />
<br />
:Yes, Ogg can carry multiple streams of audio, so you could backup an entire album in Ogg as FLAC or Vorbis and use the .oga extension. In this case alone, it is recommended to use .oga instead of .ogg because .ogg is for a single Vorbis stream file, while .oga requires a Skeleton stream which helps players recognize all the different songs in the file. Confused? One song, .ogg. Multiple songs in one file, .oga. Just make sure that the .oga file has a Skeleton stream. You can verify that with the ogginfo command line tool. And yes, you can also add a JPEG or PNG inside Ogg. I just don't know of any program that supports it, but theoretically it is possible. Just a heads up again, a song and an image are two streams of data, not just one, so again it would use .oga instead of .ogg. This also prevents breaking existing players that don't support embeded images.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:48, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: This sounds great and about streams of audio: <br />
Can I think of those streams also as separate audio files inside a multistream file? <br />
Because flac for example can also do up to eight streams.<br />
<br />
<br />
Have also a few other questions:<br />
- Is it possible to have an oga with an album in with a mix of songs in flac, vorbis and speexs?<br />
- Is it possible in oga to have a different picture for each song, stream ?<br />
(For when people make their own albums out of different albums and they want the picture of that album for each song.)<br />
<br />
:Again, yes. Theoretically, there is no limitation in what you can put in Ogg and the order you want it in, but while the format has no such limitations, this is not the case with the software out there. So, the short answer is, for the general public it will look as if Ogg cannot do that which you ask even though it can.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 06:58, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
:: Fantastic, make sure this is included into the libraries of Xiph.org since applications can easily include them.<br />
<br />
== ogg vorbis should never had a v as a first letter but now it's too late, or isn't it? ==<br />
<br />
Many people when they first hear the word vorbis think it's a video codec because of the v.<br />
(My brother thought also and he's like already 15 years old.)<br />
<br />
Mayby people don't store music in vorbis because they think it's for video.<br />
Then they look for software to do the job and can't find anything.<br />
They get mad and look for something else.<br />
<br />
Here is a very radical idea but it would make some things more clearly and prevent mistakes in the future.<br />
Make a NEW codec/file format that's actually vorbis but with another name like n/m/l/w-orbis. (You guys pick it out)<br />
There must still be an advantage of the new codec, format because otherwise users won't have a reason to update.<br />
<br />
(The name of course has to sound like vorbis.)<br />
(And mayby make ogg and vorbis and ?orbis more popular in the future.)<br />
<br />
And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
(I'll assume MIME-type is needed because of RTP and native container.)</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:MIME_Types_and_File_Extensions&diff=8179Talk:MIME Types and File Extensions2008-01-26T17:05:05Z<p>Xpete: /* ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" */</p>
<hr />
<div>== .flac - application/flac ==<br />
Why not audio/flac?<br />
<br />
Presumedly to distinguish it from "unencapsulated" flac. I'm not sure this makes sense though. Native flac is a fairly light container, and I suspect the current application/x-flac usage is just an analogy with ogg. OTOH, I don't think anyone's done flac over rtp, where this would be needed, but that is something that's interesting.<br />
<br />
:Edit: I have changed my opinion in this subject. Regardless, Josh agrees with audio/flac in case someone is willing to register it. application/flac was never registered.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:57, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::In a way application/flac to describe a stream which uses FLAC encapsulation is the same as using application/ogg to describe a stream using Ogg encapsulation. I don't really know if this is academic thinking and it's more developer-facing than end-user-facing. The question is what is going to be most consistent (and therefore make sense to someone trying to work it out). Since FLAC in Ogg is natively FLAC encapsulated it may make sense to use the same mime-type for native FLAC as the codec mime type to be used for FLAC in Ogg. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 07:26, 28 June 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== .spx - audio/ogg ==<br />
Why not audio/spx?<br />
To distinguish it from ogg vorbis.<br />
<br />
:audio/speex is only used for Speex RTP or in any other case of "Oggless" Speex. Speex in Ogg, which is a common sight, is audio/ogg just like every other audio-only Ogg file, be it Vorbis, FLAC, Ghost/CELT, MIDI, and even OggPCM.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 07:01, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: Then we still need it for RTP and in native container seems to me.<br />
:: Because of the RTP vorbis and speex should have a unique MIME type right?<br />
:: And also for native container for making correct differences.<br />
:: (One of the greatest mistakes of computer programming is identifying two different things as the same.)<br />
<br />
== ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" ==<br />
<br />
I can't accept that ".ogg" becomes Vorbis I only extension.<br />
Ogg is not a codec. It is the container of codecs.<br />
That change will be missleading people.<br />
<br />
".ogg" has been defined as "application/ogg" and already used as Theora+Vorbis.<br />
Redefining ".ogg" as Vorbis I only extension and changing MIME type to "audio/ogg" is not backward-compatible.<br />
Changing spec should be more carefully.<br />
If possible, should not change fixed spec. (I know becoming RFC does not mean fixed spec. But it is treated as fixed spec) --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 07:31, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:We understand your concern, but application/ogg isn't about audio, and people out there have wrongly associated .ogg with Vorbis only, making it harder for other codecs like Theora to succeed because of the file extension. They do not understand that Ogg is a container; they think Ogg is Vorbis. Although this proposal is somewhat radical and some people aren't 100% happy with it, it's for the best. video/ogg and audio/ogg will also be much useful now with the <video> and <audio> elements of HTML 5.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:04, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::".ogv" and ".oga" may be useful. I can accept this. But changing the definition of ".ogg" is really needed? I can't find the necessity of this. It breaks backward-compatibility. No one will be happy with this change... --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 13:56, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::We are not breaking backwards-comaptibility. That's why Vorbis and Speex will be allowed to use .ogg and .spx instead of .oga. The only thing that may break backwards-compatibility is deprecating application/ogg in favor od video/ogg and audio/ogg. That and Theora files, but since there are no Theora hardware players that we know of, existing Theora files may be renamed to .ogv easily, making compatibility with previous files a non-issue. Backwards-compatibility was seriously considered during the creation of this proposal. We are not breaking it.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:53, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ummmmm..... I think ".ogg" re-definition is not necessary. My best resolution is simply adding the new ext definitions to RFC:<br />
::::* ".ogg" is application/ogg (as RFC3534)<br />
::::* define new ext and MIME : ".ogx", ".oga", ".ogv", etc...<br />
::::* Use of new extensions is recommended.<br />
::::* Official tools are using new ext (except .ogg for Vorbis I?)<br />
::::Changing of ".ogg"'s MIME type is really necessary? --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 16:35, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::: Want also to see more consistent behaviour like changing name of vorbis into something like n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
::::: And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis and ogg would be better instead of ogx <br />
::::: because people refer to ogg as ogg not ogx<br />
::::: And people think that vorbis is a video format because it starts with a v.<br />
::::: So they look around if their player supports vorbis video but they find out only audio is supported.<br />
::::: Mad about getting wrong information and quit ogg for an alternative mostly.<br />
::::: Please change the name or create a new format that is essentially vorbis with another name. <br />
::::: (And also something extra to have a reason for people to update.)<br />
<br />
==text/cmml==<br />
text/cmml for CMML without container: the Codec mime types are to be used in Skeleton, can this mime type be applied to the CMML Ogg mapping? (It's not plain text in the way that Vorbis mapped into Ogg is exactly audio/vorbis.)<br />
<br />
== .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album ==<br />
<br />
Can multiple audio streams/files be packed to one oga? <br />
(I mean that there are seperatable flac/speex/vorbis files that can be played separately). <br />
If this is the case then oga is a very good candidate for <br />
ripping a cd with all of it's contents and metadata without loss.<br />
<br />
On a cd there is usually a picture. If you rip the cd to one of Xiph.org's free formats, <br />
it's lost because nothing supports this. <br />
Mayby oga could support this with some extra metadata and pictures in jpeg: <br />
a picture for the .oga and a picture for each number via metadata-system or something like that. <br />
This way someone can easily rip cd's and <br />
keep them in a consistent way on his or her computer. <br />
(One oga per cd, with the same picture as one the cd box, with all the numbers of one cd in oga file that can be played separatelly)<br />
<br />
:Yes, Ogg can carry multiple streams of audio, so you could backup an entire album in Ogg as FLAC or Vorbis and use the .oga extension. In this case alone, it is recommended to use .oga instead of .ogg because .ogg is for a single Vorbis stream file, while .oga requires a Skeleton stream which helps players recognize all the different songs in the file. Confused? One song, .ogg. Multiple songs in one file, .oga. Just make sure that the .oga file has a Skeleton stream. You can verify that with the ogginfo command line tool. And yes, you can also add a JPEG or PNG inside Ogg. I just don't know of any program that supports it, but theoretically it is possible. Just a heads up again, a song and an image are two streams of data, not just one, so again it would use .oga instead of .ogg. This also prevents breaking existing players that don't support embeded images.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:48, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: This sounds great and about streams of audio: <br />
Can I think of those streams also as separate audio files inside a multistream file? <br />
Because flac for example can also do up to eight streams.<br />
<br />
<br />
Have also a few other questions:<br />
- Is it possible to have an oga with an album in with a mix of songs in flac, vorbis and speexs?<br />
- Is it possible in oga to have a different picture for each song, stream ?<br />
(For when people make their own albums out of different albums and they want the picture of that album for each song.)<br />
<br />
:Again, yes. Theoretically, there is no limitation in what you can put in Ogg and the order you want it in, but while the format has no such limitations, this is not the case with the software out there. So, the short answer is, for the general public it will look as if Ogg cannot do that which you ask even though it can.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 06:58, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
:: Fantastic, make sure this is included into the libraries of Xiph.org since applications can easily include them.<br />
<br />
== ogg vorbis should never had a v as a first letter but now it's too late, or isn't it? ==<br />
<br />
Many people when they first hear the word vorbis think it's a video codec because of the v.<br />
(My brother thought also and he's like already 15 years old.)<br />
Mayby people don't store music in vorbis because they think it's for video.<br />
Then they look for software to do the job and can't find anything.<br />
<br />
Here is a very radical idea but it would make some things more clearly and prevent mistakes in the future.<br />
<br />
Make a NEW file format that's actually vorbis but with another name like n/m/l/w-orbis. (You guys pick it out)<br />
(And mayby make n/m/l/w-orbis more popular in the future.)<br />
(The name ofcours has to sound like vorbis.)<br />
<br />
And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis.</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:MIME_Types_and_File_Extensions&diff=8178Talk:MIME Types and File Extensions2008-01-26T17:02:01Z<p>Xpete: /* .spx - audio/ogg */</p>
<hr />
<div>== .flac - application/flac ==<br />
Why not audio/flac?<br />
<br />
Presumedly to distinguish it from "unencapsulated" flac. I'm not sure this makes sense though. Native flac is a fairly light container, and I suspect the current application/x-flac usage is just an analogy with ogg. OTOH, I don't think anyone's done flac over rtp, where this would be needed, but that is something that's interesting.<br />
<br />
:Edit: I have changed my opinion in this subject. Regardless, Josh agrees with audio/flac in case someone is willing to register it. application/flac was never registered.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:57, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::In a way application/flac to describe a stream which uses FLAC encapsulation is the same as using application/ogg to describe a stream using Ogg encapsulation. I don't really know if this is academic thinking and it's more developer-facing than end-user-facing. The question is what is going to be most consistent (and therefore make sense to someone trying to work it out). Since FLAC in Ogg is natively FLAC encapsulated it may make sense to use the same mime-type for native FLAC as the codec mime type to be used for FLAC in Ogg. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 07:26, 28 June 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== .spx - audio/ogg ==<br />
Why not audio/spx?<br />
To distinguish it from ogg vorbis.<br />
<br />
:audio/speex is only used for Speex RTP or in any other case of "Oggless" Speex. Speex in Ogg, which is a common sight, is audio/ogg just like every other audio-only Ogg file, be it Vorbis, FLAC, Ghost/CELT, MIDI, and even OggPCM.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 07:01, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: Then we still need it for RTP and in native container seems to me.<br />
:: Because of the RTP vorbis and speex should have a unique MIME type right?<br />
:: And also for native container for making correct differences.<br />
:: (One of the greatest mistakes of computer programming is identifying two different things as the same.)<br />
<br />
== ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" ==<br />
<br />
I can't accept that ".ogg" becomes Vorbis I only extension.<br />
Ogg is not a codec. It is the container of codecs.<br />
That change will be missleading people.<br />
<br />
".ogg" has been defined as "application/ogg" and already used as Theora+Vorbis.<br />
Redefining ".ogg" as Vorbis I only extension and changing MIME type to "audio/ogg" is not backward-compatible.<br />
Changing spec should be more carefully.<br />
If possible, should not change fixed spec. (I know becoming RFC does not mean fixed spec. But it is treated as fixed spec) --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 07:31, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:We understand your concern, but application/ogg isn't about audio, and people out there have wrongly associated .ogg with Vorbis only, making it harder for other codecs like Theora to succeed because of the file extension. They do not understand that Ogg is a container; they think Ogg is Vorbis. Although this proposal is somewhat radical and some people aren't 100% happy with it, it's for the best. video/ogg and audio/ogg will also be much useful now with the <video> and <audio> elements of HTML 5.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:04, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::".ogv" and ".oga" may be useful. I can accept this. But changing the definition of ".ogg" is really needed? I can't find the necessity of this. It breaks backward-compatibility. No one will be happy with this change... --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 13:56, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::We are not breaking backwards-comaptibility. That's why Vorbis and Speex will be allowed to use .ogg and .spx instead of .oga. The only thing that may break backwards-compatibility is deprecating application/ogg in favor od video/ogg and audio/ogg. That and Theora files, but since there are no Theora hardware players that we know of, existing Theora files may be renamed to .ogv easily, making compatibility with previous files a non-issue. Backwards-compatibility was seriously considered during the creation of this proposal. We are not breaking it.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:53, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ummmmm..... I think ".ogg" re-definition is not necessary. My best resolution is simply adding the new ext definitions to RFC:<br />
::::* ".ogg" is application/ogg (as RFC3534)<br />
::::* define new ext and MIME : ".ogx", ".oga", ".ogv", etc...<br />
::::* Use of new extensions is recommended.<br />
::::* Official tools are using new ext (except .ogg for Vorbis I?)<br />
::::Changing of ".ogg"'s MIME type is really necessary? --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 16:35, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::: Want also to see more consistent behaviour like changing name of vorbis into something like n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
::::: And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis and ogg would be better instead of ogx <br />
::::: because people refer to ogg as ogg not ogx<br />
<br />
==text/cmml==<br />
text/cmml for CMML without container: the Codec mime types are to be used in Skeleton, can this mime type be applied to the CMML Ogg mapping? (It's not plain text in the way that Vorbis mapped into Ogg is exactly audio/vorbis.)<br />
<br />
== .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album ==<br />
<br />
Can multiple audio streams/files be packed to one oga? <br />
(I mean that there are seperatable flac/speex/vorbis files that can be played separately). <br />
If this is the case then oga is a very good candidate for <br />
ripping a cd with all of it's contents and metadata without loss.<br />
<br />
On a cd there is usually a picture. If you rip the cd to one of Xiph.org's free formats, <br />
it's lost because nothing supports this. <br />
Mayby oga could support this with some extra metadata and pictures in jpeg: <br />
a picture for the .oga and a picture for each number via metadata-system or something like that. <br />
This way someone can easily rip cd's and <br />
keep them in a consistent way on his or her computer. <br />
(One oga per cd, with the same picture as one the cd box, with all the numbers of one cd in oga file that can be played separatelly)<br />
<br />
:Yes, Ogg can carry multiple streams of audio, so you could backup an entire album in Ogg as FLAC or Vorbis and use the .oga extension. In this case alone, it is recommended to use .oga instead of .ogg because .ogg is for a single Vorbis stream file, while .oga requires a Skeleton stream which helps players recognize all the different songs in the file. Confused? One song, .ogg. Multiple songs in one file, .oga. Just make sure that the .oga file has a Skeleton stream. You can verify that with the ogginfo command line tool. And yes, you can also add a JPEG or PNG inside Ogg. I just don't know of any program that supports it, but theoretically it is possible. Just a heads up again, a song and an image are two streams of data, not just one, so again it would use .oga instead of .ogg. This also prevents breaking existing players that don't support embeded images.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:48, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: This sounds great and about streams of audio: <br />
Can I think of those streams also as separate audio files inside a multistream file? <br />
Because flac for example can also do up to eight streams.<br />
<br />
<br />
Have also a few other questions:<br />
- Is it possible to have an oga with an album in with a mix of songs in flac, vorbis and speexs?<br />
- Is it possible in oga to have a different picture for each song, stream ?<br />
(For when people make their own albums out of different albums and they want the picture of that album for each song.)<br />
<br />
:Again, yes. Theoretically, there is no limitation in what you can put in Ogg and the order you want it in, but while the format has no such limitations, this is not the case with the software out there. So, the short answer is, for the general public it will look as if Ogg cannot do that which you ask even though it can.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 06:58, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
:: Fantastic, make sure this is included into the libraries of Xiph.org since applications can easily include them.<br />
<br />
== ogg vorbis should never had a v as a first letter but now it's too late, or isn't it? ==<br />
<br />
Many people when they first hear the word vorbis think it's a video codec because of the v.<br />
(My brother thought also and he's like already 15 years old.)<br />
Mayby people don't store music in vorbis because they think it's for video.<br />
Then they look for software to do the job and can't find anything.<br />
<br />
Here is a very radical idea but it would make some things more clearly and prevent mistakes in the future.<br />
<br />
Make a NEW file format that's actually vorbis but with another name like n/m/l/w-orbis. (You guys pick it out)<br />
(And mayby make n/m/l/w-orbis more popular in the future.)<br />
(The name ofcours has to sound like vorbis.)<br />
<br />
And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis.</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:MIME_Types_and_File_Extensions&diff=8177Talk:MIME Types and File Extensions2008-01-26T17:01:16Z<p>Xpete: /* .spx - audio/ogg */</p>
<hr />
<div>== .flac - application/flac ==<br />
Why not audio/flac?<br />
<br />
Presumedly to distinguish it from "unencapsulated" flac. I'm not sure this makes sense though. Native flac is a fairly light container, and I suspect the current application/x-flac usage is just an analogy with ogg. OTOH, I don't think anyone's done flac over rtp, where this would be needed, but that is something that's interesting.<br />
<br />
:Edit: I have changed my opinion in this subject. Regardless, Josh agrees with audio/flac in case someone is willing to register it. application/flac was never registered.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:57, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::In a way application/flac to describe a stream which uses FLAC encapsulation is the same as using application/ogg to describe a stream using Ogg encapsulation. I don't really know if this is academic thinking and it's more developer-facing than end-user-facing. The question is what is going to be most consistent (and therefore make sense to someone trying to work it out). Since FLAC in Ogg is natively FLAC encapsulated it may make sense to use the same mime-type for native FLAC as the codec mime type to be used for FLAC in Ogg. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 07:26, 28 June 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== .spx - audio/ogg ==<br />
Why not audio/spx?<br />
To distinguish it from ogg vorbis.<br />
<br />
:audio/speex is only used for Speex RTP or in any other case of "Oggless" Speex. Speex in Ogg, which is a common sight, is audio/ogg just like every other audio-only Ogg file, be it Vorbis, FLAC, Ghost/CELT, MIDI, and even OggPCM.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 07:01, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: Then we still need it for RTP and in native container seems to me.<br />
:: Because of the RTP vorbis and speex should have a unique MIME type right?<br />
:: And also for native container for making differences.<br />
:: (One of the greatest mistakes of computer programming is identifying two different things as the same.)<br />
<br />
== ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" ==<br />
<br />
I can't accept that ".ogg" becomes Vorbis I only extension.<br />
Ogg is not a codec. It is the container of codecs.<br />
That change will be missleading people.<br />
<br />
".ogg" has been defined as "application/ogg" and already used as Theora+Vorbis.<br />
Redefining ".ogg" as Vorbis I only extension and changing MIME type to "audio/ogg" is not backward-compatible.<br />
Changing spec should be more carefully.<br />
If possible, should not change fixed spec. (I know becoming RFC does not mean fixed spec. But it is treated as fixed spec) --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 07:31, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:We understand your concern, but application/ogg isn't about audio, and people out there have wrongly associated .ogg with Vorbis only, making it harder for other codecs like Theora to succeed because of the file extension. They do not understand that Ogg is a container; they think Ogg is Vorbis. Although this proposal is somewhat radical and some people aren't 100% happy with it, it's for the best. video/ogg and audio/ogg will also be much useful now with the <video> and <audio> elements of HTML 5.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:04, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::".ogv" and ".oga" may be useful. I can accept this. But changing the definition of ".ogg" is really needed? I can't find the necessity of this. It breaks backward-compatibility. No one will be happy with this change... --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 13:56, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::We are not breaking backwards-comaptibility. That's why Vorbis and Speex will be allowed to use .ogg and .spx instead of .oga. The only thing that may break backwards-compatibility is deprecating application/ogg in favor od video/ogg and audio/ogg. That and Theora files, but since there are no Theora hardware players that we know of, existing Theora files may be renamed to .ogv easily, making compatibility with previous files a non-issue. Backwards-compatibility was seriously considered during the creation of this proposal. We are not breaking it.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:53, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ummmmm..... I think ".ogg" re-definition is not necessary. My best resolution is simply adding the new ext definitions to RFC:<br />
::::* ".ogg" is application/ogg (as RFC3534)<br />
::::* define new ext and MIME : ".ogx", ".oga", ".ogv", etc...<br />
::::* Use of new extensions is recommended.<br />
::::* Official tools are using new ext (except .ogg for Vorbis I?)<br />
::::Changing of ".ogg"'s MIME type is really necessary? --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 16:35, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::: Want also to see more consistent behaviour like changing name of vorbis into something like n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
::::: And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis and ogg would be better instead of ogx <br />
::::: because people refer to ogg as ogg not ogx<br />
<br />
==text/cmml==<br />
text/cmml for CMML without container: the Codec mime types are to be used in Skeleton, can this mime type be applied to the CMML Ogg mapping? (It's not plain text in the way that Vorbis mapped into Ogg is exactly audio/vorbis.)<br />
<br />
== .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album ==<br />
<br />
Can multiple audio streams/files be packed to one oga? <br />
(I mean that there are seperatable flac/speex/vorbis files that can be played separately). <br />
If this is the case then oga is a very good candidate for <br />
ripping a cd with all of it's contents and metadata without loss.<br />
<br />
On a cd there is usually a picture. If you rip the cd to one of Xiph.org's free formats, <br />
it's lost because nothing supports this. <br />
Mayby oga could support this with some extra metadata and pictures in jpeg: <br />
a picture for the .oga and a picture for each number via metadata-system or something like that. <br />
This way someone can easily rip cd's and <br />
keep them in a consistent way on his or her computer. <br />
(One oga per cd, with the same picture as one the cd box, with all the numbers of one cd in oga file that can be played separatelly)<br />
<br />
:Yes, Ogg can carry multiple streams of audio, so you could backup an entire album in Ogg as FLAC or Vorbis and use the .oga extension. In this case alone, it is recommended to use .oga instead of .ogg because .ogg is for a single Vorbis stream file, while .oga requires a Skeleton stream which helps players recognize all the different songs in the file. Confused? One song, .ogg. Multiple songs in one file, .oga. Just make sure that the .oga file has a Skeleton stream. You can verify that with the ogginfo command line tool. And yes, you can also add a JPEG or PNG inside Ogg. I just don't know of any program that supports it, but theoretically it is possible. Just a heads up again, a song and an image are two streams of data, not just one, so again it would use .oga instead of .ogg. This also prevents breaking existing players that don't support embeded images.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:48, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: This sounds great and about streams of audio: <br />
Can I think of those streams also as separate audio files inside a multistream file? <br />
Because flac for example can also do up to eight streams.<br />
<br />
<br />
Have also a few other questions:<br />
- Is it possible to have an oga with an album in with a mix of songs in flac, vorbis and speexs?<br />
- Is it possible in oga to have a different picture for each song, stream ?<br />
(For when people make their own albums out of different albums and they want the picture of that album for each song.)<br />
<br />
:Again, yes. Theoretically, there is no limitation in what you can put in Ogg and the order you want it in, but while the format has no such limitations, this is not the case with the software out there. So, the short answer is, for the general public it will look as if Ogg cannot do that which you ask even though it can.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 06:58, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
:: Fantastic, make sure this is included into the libraries of Xiph.org since applications can easily include them.<br />
<br />
== ogg vorbis should never had a v as a first letter but now it's too late, or isn't it? ==<br />
<br />
Many people when they first hear the word vorbis think it's a video codec because of the v.<br />
(My brother thought also and he's like already 15 years old.)<br />
Mayby people don't store music in vorbis because they think it's for video.<br />
Then they look for software to do the job and can't find anything.<br />
<br />
Here is a very radical idea but it would make some things more clearly and prevent mistakes in the future.<br />
<br />
Make a NEW file format that's actually vorbis but with another name like n/m/l/w-orbis. (You guys pick it out)<br />
(And mayby make n/m/l/w-orbis more popular in the future.)<br />
(The name ofcours has to sound like vorbis.)<br />
<br />
And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis.</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:MIME_Types_and_File_Extensions&diff=8176Talk:MIME Types and File Extensions2008-01-26T16:54:55Z<p>Xpete: /* .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album */</p>
<hr />
<div>== .flac - application/flac ==<br />
Why not audio/flac?<br />
<br />
Presumedly to distinguish it from "unencapsulated" flac. I'm not sure this makes sense though. Native flac is a fairly light container, and I suspect the current application/x-flac usage is just an analogy with ogg. OTOH, I don't think anyone's done flac over rtp, where this would be needed, but that is something that's interesting.<br />
<br />
:Edit: I have changed my opinion in this subject. Regardless, Josh agrees with audio/flac in case someone is willing to register it. application/flac was never registered.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:57, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::In a way application/flac to describe a stream which uses FLAC encapsulation is the same as using application/ogg to describe a stream using Ogg encapsulation. I don't really know if this is academic thinking and it's more developer-facing than end-user-facing. The question is what is going to be most consistent (and therefore make sense to someone trying to work it out). Since FLAC in Ogg is natively FLAC encapsulated it may make sense to use the same mime-type for native FLAC as the codec mime type to be used for FLAC in Ogg. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 07:26, 28 June 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== .spx - audio/ogg ==<br />
Why not audio/spx?<br />
To distinguish it from ogg vorbis.<br />
<br />
:audio/speex is only used for Speex RTP or in any other case of "Oggless" Speex. Speex in Ogg, which is a common sight, is audio/ogg just like every other audio-only Ogg file, be it Vorbis, FLAC, Ghost/CELT, MIDI, and even OggPCM.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 07:01, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
== ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" ==<br />
<br />
I can't accept that ".ogg" becomes Vorbis I only extension.<br />
Ogg is not a codec. It is the container of codecs.<br />
That change will be missleading people.<br />
<br />
".ogg" has been defined as "application/ogg" and already used as Theora+Vorbis.<br />
Redefining ".ogg" as Vorbis I only extension and changing MIME type to "audio/ogg" is not backward-compatible.<br />
Changing spec should be more carefully.<br />
If possible, should not change fixed spec. (I know becoming RFC does not mean fixed spec. But it is treated as fixed spec) --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 07:31, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:We understand your concern, but application/ogg isn't about audio, and people out there have wrongly associated .ogg with Vorbis only, making it harder for other codecs like Theora to succeed because of the file extension. They do not understand that Ogg is a container; they think Ogg is Vorbis. Although this proposal is somewhat radical and some people aren't 100% happy with it, it's for the best. video/ogg and audio/ogg will also be much useful now with the <video> and <audio> elements of HTML 5.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:04, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::".ogv" and ".oga" may be useful. I can accept this. But changing the definition of ".ogg" is really needed? I can't find the necessity of this. It breaks backward-compatibility. No one will be happy with this change... --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 13:56, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::We are not breaking backwards-comaptibility. That's why Vorbis and Speex will be allowed to use .ogg and .spx instead of .oga. The only thing that may break backwards-compatibility is deprecating application/ogg in favor od video/ogg and audio/ogg. That and Theora files, but since there are no Theora hardware players that we know of, existing Theora files may be renamed to .ogv easily, making compatibility with previous files a non-issue. Backwards-compatibility was seriously considered during the creation of this proposal. We are not breaking it.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:53, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ummmmm..... I think ".ogg" re-definition is not necessary. My best resolution is simply adding the new ext definitions to RFC:<br />
::::* ".ogg" is application/ogg (as RFC3534)<br />
::::* define new ext and MIME : ".ogx", ".oga", ".ogv", etc...<br />
::::* Use of new extensions is recommended.<br />
::::* Official tools are using new ext (except .ogg for Vorbis I?)<br />
::::Changing of ".ogg"'s MIME type is really necessary? --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 16:35, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::: Want also to see more consistent behaviour like changing name of vorbis into something like n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
::::: And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis and ogg would be better instead of ogx <br />
::::: because people refer to ogg as ogg not ogx<br />
<br />
==text/cmml==<br />
text/cmml for CMML without container: the Codec mime types are to be used in Skeleton, can this mime type be applied to the CMML Ogg mapping? (It's not plain text in the way that Vorbis mapped into Ogg is exactly audio/vorbis.)<br />
<br />
== .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album ==<br />
<br />
Can multiple audio streams/files be packed to one oga? <br />
(I mean that there are seperatable flac/speex/vorbis files that can be played separately). <br />
If this is the case then oga is a very good candidate for <br />
ripping a cd with all of it's contents and metadata without loss.<br />
<br />
On a cd there is usually a picture. If you rip the cd to one of Xiph.org's free formats, <br />
it's lost because nothing supports this. <br />
Mayby oga could support this with some extra metadata and pictures in jpeg: <br />
a picture for the .oga and a picture for each number via metadata-system or something like that. <br />
This way someone can easily rip cd's and <br />
keep them in a consistent way on his or her computer. <br />
(One oga per cd, with the same picture as one the cd box, with all the numbers of one cd in oga file that can be played separatelly)<br />
<br />
:Yes, Ogg can carry multiple streams of audio, so you could backup an entire album in Ogg as FLAC or Vorbis and use the .oga extension. In this case alone, it is recommended to use .oga instead of .ogg because .ogg is for a single Vorbis stream file, while .oga requires a Skeleton stream which helps players recognize all the different songs in the file. Confused? One song, .ogg. Multiple songs in one file, .oga. Just make sure that the .oga file has a Skeleton stream. You can verify that with the ogginfo command line tool. And yes, you can also add a JPEG or PNG inside Ogg. I just don't know of any program that supports it, but theoretically it is possible. Just a heads up again, a song and an image are two streams of data, not just one, so again it would use .oga instead of .ogg. This also prevents breaking existing players that don't support embeded images.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:48, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: This sounds great and about streams of audio: <br />
Can I think of those streams also as separate audio files inside a multistream file? <br />
Because flac for example can also do up to eight streams.<br />
<br />
<br />
Have also a few other questions:<br />
- Is it possible to have an oga with an album in with a mix of songs in flac, vorbis and speexs?<br />
- Is it possible in oga to have a different picture for each song, stream ?<br />
(For when people make their own albums out of different albums and they want the picture of that album for each song.)<br />
<br />
:Again, yes. Theoretically, there is no limitation in what you can put in Ogg and the order you want it in, but while the format has no such limitations, this is not the case with the software out there. So, the short answer is, for the general public it will look as if Ogg cannot do that which you ask even though it can.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 06:58, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
:: Fantastic, make sure this is included into the libraries of Xiph.org since applications can easily include them.<br />
<br />
== ogg vorbis should never had a v as a first letter but now it's too late, or isn't it? ==<br />
<br />
Many people when they first hear the word vorbis think it's a video codec because of the v.<br />
(My brother thought also and he's like already 15 years old.)<br />
Mayby people don't store music in vorbis because they think it's for video.<br />
Then they look for software to do the job and can't find anything.<br />
<br />
Here is a very radical idea but it would make some things more clearly and prevent mistakes in the future.<br />
<br />
Make a NEW file format that's actually vorbis but with another name like n/m/l/w-orbis. (You guys pick it out)<br />
(And mayby make n/m/l/w-orbis more popular in the future.)<br />
(The name ofcours has to sound like vorbis.)<br />
<br />
And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis.</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:MIME_Types_and_File_Extensions&diff=8175Talk:MIME Types and File Extensions2008-01-26T16:53:04Z<p>Xpete: /* ogg vorbis should never had a v as a first letter but now it's too late, or isn't it? */</p>
<hr />
<div>== .flac - application/flac ==<br />
Why not audio/flac?<br />
<br />
Presumedly to distinguish it from "unencapsulated" flac. I'm not sure this makes sense though. Native flac is a fairly light container, and I suspect the current application/x-flac usage is just an analogy with ogg. OTOH, I don't think anyone's done flac over rtp, where this would be needed, but that is something that's interesting.<br />
<br />
:Edit: I have changed my opinion in this subject. Regardless, Josh agrees with audio/flac in case someone is willing to register it. application/flac was never registered.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:57, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::In a way application/flac to describe a stream which uses FLAC encapsulation is the same as using application/ogg to describe a stream using Ogg encapsulation. I don't really know if this is academic thinking and it's more developer-facing than end-user-facing. The question is what is going to be most consistent (and therefore make sense to someone trying to work it out). Since FLAC in Ogg is natively FLAC encapsulated it may make sense to use the same mime-type for native FLAC as the codec mime type to be used for FLAC in Ogg. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 07:26, 28 June 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== .spx - audio/ogg ==<br />
Why not audio/spx?<br />
To distinguish it from ogg vorbis.<br />
<br />
:audio/speex is only used for Speex RTP or in any other case of "Oggless" Speex. Speex in Ogg, which is a common sight, is audio/ogg just like every other audio-only Ogg file, be it Vorbis, FLAC, Ghost/CELT, MIDI, and even OggPCM.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 07:01, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
== ".ogg" should be "application/ogg" ==<br />
<br />
I can't accept that ".ogg" becomes Vorbis I only extension.<br />
Ogg is not a codec. It is the container of codecs.<br />
That change will be missleading people.<br />
<br />
".ogg" has been defined as "application/ogg" and already used as Theora+Vorbis.<br />
Redefining ".ogg" as Vorbis I only extension and changing MIME type to "audio/ogg" is not backward-compatible.<br />
Changing spec should be more carefully.<br />
If possible, should not change fixed spec. (I know becoming RFC does not mean fixed spec. But it is treated as fixed spec) --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 07:31, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:We understand your concern, but application/ogg isn't about audio, and people out there have wrongly associated .ogg with Vorbis only, making it harder for other codecs like Theora to succeed because of the file extension. They do not understand that Ogg is a container; they think Ogg is Vorbis. Although this proposal is somewhat radical and some people aren't 100% happy with it, it's for the best. video/ogg and audio/ogg will also be much useful now with the <video> and <audio> elements of HTML 5.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:04, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::".ogv" and ".oga" may be useful. I can accept this. But changing the definition of ".ogg" is really needed? I can't find the necessity of this. It breaks backward-compatibility. No one will be happy with this change... --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 13:56, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::We are not breaking backwards-comaptibility. That's why Vorbis and Speex will be allowed to use .ogg and .spx instead of .oga. The only thing that may break backwards-compatibility is deprecating application/ogg in favor od video/ogg and audio/ogg. That and Theora files, but since there are no Theora hardware players that we know of, existing Theora files may be renamed to .ogv easily, making compatibility with previous files a non-issue. Backwards-compatibility was seriously considered during the creation of this proposal. We are not breaking it.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 14:53, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ummmmm..... I think ".ogg" re-definition is not necessary. My best resolution is simply adding the new ext definitions to RFC:<br />
::::* ".ogg" is application/ogg (as RFC3534)<br />
::::* define new ext and MIME : ".ogx", ".oga", ".ogv", etc...<br />
::::* Use of new extensions is recommended.<br />
::::* Official tools are using new ext (except .ogg for Vorbis I?)<br />
::::Changing of ".ogg"'s MIME type is really necessary? --[[User:話切徒|話切徒]] 16:35, 7 September 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::::: Want also to see more consistent behaviour like changing name of vorbis into something like n/m/l/w-orbis.<br />
::::: And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis and ogg would be better instead of ogx <br />
::::: because people refer to ogg as ogg not ogx<br />
<br />
==text/cmml==<br />
text/cmml for CMML without container: the Codec mime types are to be used in Skeleton, can this mime type be applied to the CMML Ogg mapping? (It's not plain text in the way that Vorbis mapped into Ogg is exactly audio/vorbis.)<br />
<br />
== .oga - able to rip cd's with all of it's contents also metadata like picture of the album ==<br />
<br />
Can multiple audio streams/files be packed to one oga? <br />
(I mean that there are seperatable flac/speex/vorbis files that can be played separately). <br />
If this is the case then oga is a very good candidate for <br />
ripping a cd with all of it's contents and metadata without loss.<br />
<br />
On a cd there is usually a picture. If you rip the cd to one of Xiph.org's free formats, <br />
it's lost because nothing supports this. <br />
Mayby oga could support this with some extra metadata and pictures in jpeg: <br />
a picture for the .oga and a picture for each number via metadata-system or something like that. <br />
This way someone can easily rip cd's and <br />
keep them in a consistent way on his or her computer. <br />
(One oga per cd, with the same picture as one the cd box, with all the numbers of one cd in oga file that can be played separatelly)<br />
<br />
:Yes, Ogg can carry multiple streams of audio, so you could backup an entire album in Ogg as FLAC or Vorbis and use the .oga extension. In this case alone, it is recommended to use .oga instead of .ogg because .ogg is for a single Vorbis stream file, while .oga requires a Skeleton stream which helps players recognize all the different songs in the file. Confused? One song, .ogg. Multiple songs in one file, .oga. Just make sure that the .oga file has a Skeleton stream. You can verify that with the ogginfo command line tool. And yes, you can also add a JPEG or PNG inside Ogg. I just don't know of any program that supports it, but theoretically it is possible. Just a heads up again, a song and an image are two streams of data, not just one, so again it would use .oga instead of .ogg. This also prevents breaking existing players that don't support embeded images.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 08:48, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
:: This sounds great and about streams of audio: <br />
Can I think of those streams also as separate audio files inside a multistream file? <br />
Because flac for example can also do up to eight streams.<br />
<br />
<br />
Have also a few other questions:<br />
- Is it possible to have an oga with an album in with a mix of songs in flac, vorbis and speexs?<br />
- Is it possible in oga to have a different picture for each song, stream ?<br />
(For when people make their own albums out of different albums and they want the picture of that album for each song.)<br />
<br />
:Again, yes. Theoretically, there is no limitation in what you can put in Ogg and the order you want it in, but while the format has no such limitations, this is not the case with the software out there. So, the short answer is, for the general public it will look as if Ogg cannot do that which you ask even though it can.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 06:58, 26 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
== ogg vorbis should never had a v as a first letter but now it's too late, or isn't it? ==<br />
<br />
Many people when they first hear the word vorbis think it's a video codec because of the v.<br />
(My brother thought also and he's like already 15 years old.)<br />
Mayby people don't store music in vorbis because they think it's for video.<br />
Then they look for software to do the job and can't find anything.<br />
<br />
Here is a very radical idea but it would make some things more clearly and prevent mistakes in the future.<br />
<br />
Make a NEW file format that's actually vorbis but with another name like n/m/l/w-orbis. (You guys pick it out)<br />
(And mayby make n/m/l/w-orbis more popular in the future.)<br />
(The name ofcours has to sound like vorbis.)<br />
<br />
And mime type is then audio/ n/m/l/w-orbis.</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&diff=8165Talk:Main Page2008-01-26T14:36:41Z<p>Xpete: Added subject</p>
<hr />
<div>According to [[Special:Popularpages]], the various pages in the Demonstration section are the most visited parts of the wiki, so I moved that section to the top of the main page. --[[User:Andrel|Andrel]] 09:19, 26 April 2006 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Work in Progress ==<br />
<br />
It's not clear on first view (to me at least) that<br />
[[Main Page#Work in Progress]] is a link to<br />
[[Work In Progress]] (as none of the other section headings<br />
are). Possibly it should be a normal heading with the link<br />
in a short text below (à la [[Main Page#Other software]]).<br />
<br />
[[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 05:22, 1 February 2006 (PST)<br />
<br />
You are free to fix that. It's a wiki after all -- [[User:Jmspeex|Jmspeex]] 19:22, 1 February 2006 (PST)<br />
<br />
Done (just didn't want to trample all over the front page) -- [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 04:33, 2 February 2006 (PST)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Lock This Page ==<br />
<br />
On all/most other wikis the Main Page is locked so only admins can edit it. Due to the amount of vandalism, I think the [[Main Page]] should be locked and all changes discussed here. --[[User:SonicChao|SonicChao]] 05:11, 27 August 2006 (PDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Missing Item on Page ==<br />
OggUVS isn't mentioned, please add this.<br />
<br />
<br />
== Paranoia / cdparanoia ==<br />
<br />
Why is there no listing under software of paranoia or cdparanoia? Also, there is no listing on the main xiph.org page. Is that software acknowlegded? --[[User:WhiteDragon|WhiteDragon]] 19:52, 9 September 2006 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Suggestion :-O ==<br />
First I want to congratulate you on the wonderful work being done. Thank you very much :-)<br />
Please allow anonymous edits (like wikipedia does) b'caus i'm too lazy to login :-)<br />
<br />
:I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the ton of hidden links I just culled has nothing to do with you... I can't speak for the people running Xiph but requiring a login reduces some of the flood of spam that shows up here, and Wikipedia has many more resources available to deal with it than this wiki does. [[User:Imalone|Imalone]] 06:06, 24 November 2006 (PST)<br />
<br />
== Proposal for a developer section ==<br />
<br />
As more developers start to "get it" about how ultra cool Ogg / Vorbis / Theora / etc is, wouldn't it be great to have a wiki section devoted to helping these budding programmers along? eg: i've written some nice code i'd be happy to share. Could contain a programming FAQ, how-to's, and real code. Thoughts? [[User:Davec|Davec]] 13:44, 6 December 2006 (PST)<br />
<br />
== Why CamelCase? ==<br />
<br />
MediaWiki supports free links, why are most page titles in the CamelCase format? - [[User:Sikon|Sikon]] 05:34, 27 February 2007 (PST)<br />
:CamelCase? I don't see what you mean. If you think something's wrong, you may go ahead and change it. That's what wikis are for.--[[User:Saoshyant|Saoshyant]] 05:37, 27 February 2007 (PST)<br />
:[[WhatHappened|Historical reasons]]. The original wiki used software that only supported [http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?CamelCase CamelCase]. For new pages it is fine to use free links. I suggest not renaming pages, as many of them have good search ranking. [[User:Andrel|Andrel]] 07:03, 27 February 2007 (PST)<br />
I see now. And thanks for the WhatHappened link, Andrel. I managed to recover two pages so far from web archive. I wonder if I'll savage it further.--[[User:Saoshyant|Saoshyant]] 08:28, 27 February 2007 (PST)<br />
<br />
== ICECast2 vs vBulletin ==<br />
<br />
Hi there,<br />
Fisrt let me thank you all the great work and the self performance over the ICECast streaming server<br />
<br />
I also Wonder if anyone had included ICECast directly into a vBulletin board having it worked from there on ..meaning enbable to use same username,permission and prefference from the database itself running on MySQL 5 having as if setting permission on for a usergroupe from there to enable them streaming out on your ICECast server and others can apply and yet just participate into the main forum itself<br />
<br />
I do have both running-up over my dedicated server now meanwhile if any would want to help me out creating like this hack or template am willing to give them all access for working over it <br />
can YOU imagine how friendly and powerful that ICECast would mean then<br />
<br />
hey give me a shout if willing to try it<br />
<br />
admin@gysmo.net<br />
<br />
== News ==<br />
<br />
Hi,<br />
<br />
I would really strongly suggest adding this to your news items... Someone has made a graphical interface for ffmpeg2theora at http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Video/Other-VIDEO-Tools/GFrontEnd-for-ffmpeg2theora.shtml<br />
<br />
I don't know the technical difficulties of building such a tool, but regardless, the ability for a common Windows user like myself to be able to just easily convert a proprietary file format to Ogg-Theora is really cool... I tested it out on the sample WMV file that came with this laptop, and the converted file worked great in Cortado... Of course, news about programs that allow one to record directly to Ogg-Theora would be even better, but this is still very important, imo... [[User:Brettz9|Brettz9]] 20:56, 4 July 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== .NET :-( ==<br />
<br />
> I would really strongly suggest adding this to your news items<br />
<br />
Check it out: > Requirements: .NET Framework 2.0<br />
<br />
Also, with 1.5 MiB size it's bigger than FFMPEG2THEORA itself (1.3 MiB after recompressing with UPX 3.0 --ultra-brute) - not that VERY good IMHO.<br />
<br />
: Sorry, do you mean MB as in Megabytes? That's a drop in the bucket of most hard drives nowadays, no? And .NET was already on my system for something I had downloaded earlier (not sure what, but maybe others may have it already too). My interest in seeing it announced is not how well it is implemented--if there are better alternatives let them be known--but that such a tool exists and it works (at least if you get the requirements).<br />
<br />
== MiB ||| .NET ==<br />
<br />
> Sorry, do you mean MB as in Megabytes?<br />
<br />
NO. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_prefix]]<br />
<br />
> And .NET was already on my system for something I had downloaded earlier (not sure what, but maybe others may have it already too)<br />
<br />
I don't have .NET and don't like it :-( Finally, the important thing is the FFMPEG2THEOA core and it works perfectly for me without .NET ;-)<br />
<br />
== Link to Games in Demonstrations Section? ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't there be a link to [[Games_that_use_Theora]] in the section with other demonstrations? Maybe there's not enough games listed on the page to warrant it?<br />
--[[User:Sim9|Sim9]] 11:47, 27 October 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:Yes. There's only two games listed right now. I'm pretty sure there's more out there. Sim9, can you help us listing more games?--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 11:56, 28 October 2007 (PDT)<br />
<br />
::I'm sure you're right, there ''has'' to be more than two. Theora (and Vorbis) is now by default included in the Torque game engine, so there must be a lot of games using it by now. I just polled the Torque community to see if they know of any to help us fill up the list with some successful integrations! --[[User:Sim9|Sim9]] 19:02, 29 October 2007 (PDT)</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:OggPCM&diff=8164Talk:OggPCM2008-01-26T14:31:49Z<p>Xpete: /* Question: will this thing be lossy or lossless or both */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Big endian, little endian ==<br />
<br />
The article read: <br />
<blockquote><br />
"Note that unless otherwise noted, all multi-byte fields use the network byte order (big endian)."<br />
</blockquote><br />
<br />
To which Qqq responded on November 20, 2007: <br />
:Portable players are usually ARM, which is usually little-endian. The Macintosh is now little-endian. Obviously the PC is little-endian. Clearly there is a winner. It's long past time to stop putting the bytes in an order that makes both programmers and computers do extra work for no good reason. Don't try to hold back the tide.<br />
<br />
::Perhaps so, but factually people do use OggPCM on big-endian machines. Having big-endian as an option makes sense then, and what is suggested above would then become a recommendation on how to use the format, not a necessary limitation on it. [[User:Decoy|Decoy]] 04:07, 19 December 2007 (PST)<br />
<br />
:::I am convinced by Qqq's arguments. Default should be changed to little endian. [[User:Martin.leese|Martin Leese]] 11:42, 19 December 2007 (PST)<br />
<br />
::::If Qqq's argument happens to be true, I'd agree with this change as well. Since I am unsure, I'd like to propose to bring this issue up in the ogg-dev mailing list.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 11:16, 29 December 2007 (PST)<br />
<br />
This issue was discussed on the mailing list and we decided it was best to leave it as it is.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 09:42, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
== Fractional sample rate ==<br />
<br />
The article read: <br />
<blockquote><br />
"32 [uint] Sampling rate [Hz]"<br />
</blockquote><br />
<br />
To which Qqq responded on November 20, 2007: <br />
:-- this should be a rational with at least a 22-bit numerator and 10-bit denominator<br />
<br />
:An integer sampling rate is trouble. Audio does not always come that way. For example, audio is sometimes tied to the NTSC frame rate of 30000/1001. That 1001 can show up in the sample rate, and thus needs 10 bits. Rates with a 3 in the denominator are common too. Super Audio CD needs 22 bits to represent 2.8224 MHz. So 22 bits and 10 bits will do the job. Better would be 32 bits for both numerator and denominator of course. A float will never be quite right, though it sure beats an integer and will in fact hold exact values into the MHz. One can't express 1/3 or 1/10 as a float, so 12345.6 and 12345.6666... are undoable that way. BTW, allowing for subsonic recording would be nice.<br />
<br />
::DSD does not have to be supported, because while technically it can be viewed as high rate PCM, in practice OggPCM aims at supporting the most common forms of conventional PCM, not much more. DSD content is rare, there is no obvious reason why it would be generated by any of the free/open source software projects like Xiph, it would also need its own sample format tag, we would need to go into the specifics of bit packing, and so on. It seems like a whole lot of extra work and complexity for very little gain.<br />
<br />
::The physical header has already been finalized, so touching the sampling rate parameter is not really an option. Fractional sampling rates would again add complexity for little real benefit, and the option would be difficult to ignore if implemented. That's bad for embedded devices. The point about NTSC, drop-frame and the like is valid, granted, but given how imperfect such sources usually are, addressing the mismatch by simple resampling techniques should be sufficient.<br />
<br />
::Subsonic recording, that's IMO unnecessary generality for something intended for multimedia work.<br />
<br />
::[[User:Decoy|Decoy]] 04:07, 19 December 2007 (PST)<br />
<br />
== Question: will this thing be lossy or lossless or both ==<br />
<br />
This uncompressed codec: will it be lossy or lossless or kinda both?<br />
<br />
:It is uncompressed. Lossy is compression that removes pieces of data to chunk more the file size. Lossless is compression without loss of quality.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 09:42, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
:: I'll assume it's thinkable as lossless like OggUVS.<br />
<br />
== zip archive ==<br />
<br />
Could compressing it in a zip archive, which is playable without unpacking the whole thing, make for relative small but playable files. Unpacking on the fly possible?<br />
<br />
:ZIP compression (called LZII or flate/deflate) was designed for English language text. It works poorly on audio data. [[User:Martin.leese|Martin Leese]] 11:42, 25 January 2008 (PST)</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:OggPCM&diff=8163Talk:OggPCM2008-01-26T14:30:22Z<p>Xpete: /* Question: will this thing be lossy or lossless or both */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Big endian, little endian ==<br />
<br />
The article read: <br />
<blockquote><br />
"Note that unless otherwise noted, all multi-byte fields use the network byte order (big endian)."<br />
</blockquote><br />
<br />
To which Qqq responded on November 20, 2007: <br />
:Portable players are usually ARM, which is usually little-endian. The Macintosh is now little-endian. Obviously the PC is little-endian. Clearly there is a winner. It's long past time to stop putting the bytes in an order that makes both programmers and computers do extra work for no good reason. Don't try to hold back the tide.<br />
<br />
::Perhaps so, but factually people do use OggPCM on big-endian machines. Having big-endian as an option makes sense then, and what is suggested above would then become a recommendation on how to use the format, not a necessary limitation on it. [[User:Decoy|Decoy]] 04:07, 19 December 2007 (PST)<br />
<br />
:::I am convinced by Qqq's arguments. Default should be changed to little endian. [[User:Martin.leese|Martin Leese]] 11:42, 19 December 2007 (PST)<br />
<br />
::::If Qqq's argument happens to be true, I'd agree with this change as well. Since I am unsure, I'd like to propose to bring this issue up in the ogg-dev mailing list.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 11:16, 29 December 2007 (PST)<br />
<br />
This issue was discussed on the mailing list and we decided it was best to leave it as it is.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 09:42, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
<br />
== Fractional sample rate ==<br />
<br />
The article read: <br />
<blockquote><br />
"32 [uint] Sampling rate [Hz]"<br />
</blockquote><br />
<br />
To which Qqq responded on November 20, 2007: <br />
:-- this should be a rational with at least a 22-bit numerator and 10-bit denominator<br />
<br />
:An integer sampling rate is trouble. Audio does not always come that way. For example, audio is sometimes tied to the NTSC frame rate of 30000/1001. That 1001 can show up in the sample rate, and thus needs 10 bits. Rates with a 3 in the denominator are common too. Super Audio CD needs 22 bits to represent 2.8224 MHz. So 22 bits and 10 bits will do the job. Better would be 32 bits for both numerator and denominator of course. A float will never be quite right, though it sure beats an integer and will in fact hold exact values into the MHz. One can't express 1/3 or 1/10 as a float, so 12345.6 and 12345.6666... are undoable that way. BTW, allowing for subsonic recording would be nice.<br />
<br />
::DSD does not have to be supported, because while technically it can be viewed as high rate PCM, in practice OggPCM aims at supporting the most common forms of conventional PCM, not much more. DSD content is rare, there is no obvious reason why it would be generated by any of the free/open source software projects like Xiph, it would also need its own sample format tag, we would need to go into the specifics of bit packing, and so on. It seems like a whole lot of extra work and complexity for very little gain.<br />
<br />
::The physical header has already been finalized, so touching the sampling rate parameter is not really an option. Fractional sampling rates would again add complexity for little real benefit, and the option would be difficult to ignore if implemented. That's bad for embedded devices. The point about NTSC, drop-frame and the like is valid, granted, but given how imperfect such sources usually are, addressing the mismatch by simple resampling techniques should be sufficient.<br />
<br />
::Subsonic recording, that's IMO unnecessary generality for something intended for multimedia work.<br />
<br />
::[[User:Decoy|Decoy]] 04:07, 19 December 2007 (PST)<br />
<br />
== Question: will this thing be lossy or lossless or both ==<br />
<br />
This uncompressed codec: will it be lossy or lossless or kinda both?<br />
<br />
:It is uncompressed. Lossy is compression that removes pieces of data to chunk more the file size. Lossless is compression without loss of quality.--[[User:Saoshyant|Ivo]] 09:42, 25 January 2008 (PST)<br />
:: I'll assume it's thinkable as lossless like OggUYS<br />
<br />
== zip archive ==<br />
<br />
Could compressing it in a zip archive, which is playable without unpacking the whole thing, make for relative small but playable files. Unpacking on the fly possible?<br />
<br />
:ZIP compression (called LZII or flate/deflate) was designed for English language text. It works poorly on audio data. [[User:Martin.leese|Martin Leese]] 11:42, 25 January 2008 (PST)</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:OggUVS&diff=8162Talk:OggUVS2008-01-26T14:28:36Z<p>Xpete: /* Will this thing be lossy or lossless? */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Caveats ==<br />
<br />
* At very low resolutions it's possible to encode a video that has incomplete timing information because more than one frame could fit into an Ogg page. This represents data loss in the case of variable frame rate video (a common case in devices that are limited to such low resolutions). libogg's default limit of 4kB isn't meaningful; the actual limit is ~64kB. Are people really willing to impose a rule that no more than one field can finish within a page? --[[User:Gumboot|Gumboot]] 06:34, 19 Nov 2005 (PST)<br />
<br />
== Field rates and timebase ==<br />
<br />
The combination of field rate and timebase information amounts to only two scalars. The field rate can be expressed as the number of time steps between each frame. If this is imprecise then the timebase should be increased, or it can be specified that the step rate varies between k and k+1. Multiplying the timebase by the Frame Rate Numerator will have all the original precision. --[[User:Gumboot|Gumboot]] 06:44, 19 Nov 2005 (PST)<br />
<br />
The distinction between shutter rate and field rate has not been made clear. It is possible, and not uncommon, to issue two fields from the same sample interval separately. It is also possible to have no shutter at all, and for every pixel to be sampled in a different time interval. Be careful to note the common case where the actual shutter is 24Hz, but the effective shutter rate needs to be declared as 25Hz to be consistent with the audio track and the field rate. --[[User:Gumboot|Gumboot]] 07:01, 19 Nov 2005 (PST)<br />
<br />
== Will this thing be lossy or lossless? ==<br />
<br />
It's neither. It's uncompressed and raw. You may consider it lossless if it helps you understand.--Ivo<br />
:Thanks<br />
<br />
== zip ==<br />
Could zipping (compressing it in a zip archive) provide a meaningful way of compressing OggUVS to relative small files that can be played?<br />
<br />
:OggUVS is not for the common user. Rather it is for video editors and cameras. It's not the "FLAC of video".--Ivo<br />
<br />
:: I mean the encapsulating ogg file that could be zipped and played to create relatively small playable video's.<br />
:: Because it's also possible in Gimp to transparantly use zip files.<br />
:: Or in windows it's possible to view thumbnails of images in a zip file without uncompressing it first.<br />
:: (Creating a zip file is very easy, the average user can do it.)</div>Xpetehttps://wiki.xiph.org/index.php?title=Talk:OggUVS&diff=8161Talk:OggUVS2008-01-26T14:28:08Z<p>Xpete: /* zip */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Caveats ==<br />
<br />
* At very low resolutions it's possible to encode a video that has incomplete timing information because more than one frame could fit into an Ogg page. This represents data loss in the case of variable frame rate video (a common case in devices that are limited to such low resolutions). libogg's default limit of 4kB isn't meaningful; the actual limit is ~64kB. Are people really willing to impose a rule that no more than one field can finish within a page? --[[User:Gumboot|Gumboot]] 06:34, 19 Nov 2005 (PST)<br />
<br />
== Field rates and timebase ==<br />
<br />
The combination of field rate and timebase information amounts to only two scalars. The field rate can be expressed as the number of time steps between each frame. If this is imprecise then the timebase should be increased, or it can be specified that the step rate varies between k and k+1. Multiplying the timebase by the Frame Rate Numerator will have all the original precision. --[[User:Gumboot|Gumboot]] 06:44, 19 Nov 2005 (PST)<br />
<br />
The distinction between shutter rate and field rate has not been made clear. It is possible, and not uncommon, to issue two fields from the same sample interval separately. It is also possible to have no shutter at all, and for every pixel to be sampled in a different time interval. Be careful to note the common case where the actual shutter is 24Hz, but the effective shutter rate needs to be declared as 25Hz to be consistent with the audio track and the field rate. --[[User:Gumboot|Gumboot]] 07:01, 19 Nov 2005 (PST)<br />
<br />
== Will this thing be lossy or lossless? ==<br />
<br />
It's neither. It's uncompressed and raw. You may consider it lossless if it helps you understand.--Ivo<br />
<br />
== zip ==<br />
Could zipping (compressing it in a zip archive) provide a meaningful way of compressing OggUVS to relative small files that can be played?<br />
<br />
:OggUVS is not for the common user. Rather it is for video editors and cameras. It's not the "FLAC of video".--Ivo<br />
<br />
:: I mean the encapsulating ogg file that could be zipped and played to create relatively small playable video's.<br />
:: Because it's also possible in Gimp to transparantly use zip files.<br />
:: Or in windows it's possible to view thumbnails of images in a zip file without uncompressing it first.<br />
:: (Creating a zip file is very easy, the average user can do it.)</div>Xpete